Electric vehicle war, is gas soon to be toast?

[TorqueDog]

My first reaction to "It is unreasonable when it cannot differentiate between people who require the truck for work, and people who use it strictly for pleasure" is: Why?

Why does it need to differentiate between those two? This is painted as a small business / independent contractor issue, but the reality is that this would largely benefit large organizations that order fleets of pickup trucks. People who buy trucks exclusively for work purposes already get tax write-offs to varying degrees, why can't they be subject to the same excise tax? Are other excise taxes suspended for work trucks, like air conditioning excise or tire tax?

[PeteMoss]

The taxes will hit drivers of less efficient vehicles - they will just be indirect enough so they can't get flung into a culture war type of battle. 'They hate us truck driving working guys'

[TorqueDog]

So for the first time, my MIL tried to use a public Level 3 charger out in Canmore. It was her and a few friends. The vehicle was sitting around 30%, so driving back to central Calgary from Canmore would definitely sap the remaining charge. Fortunately there are at least four different Level 3-equipped charging stations in Canmore.

It did not go smoothly.

She plugged in the Level 2 charger cable then called because it was taking forever. This is because she just assumed the same cable she uses at home would charge the car at Level 3 speeds. She didn't think it would fit because the vehicle has a rubber filler in the lower portion of the connector effectively hiding it until you want to use it. Thankfully while I was on the phone helping her out, a guy who also owned an EV helped them out and the charging is underway.

Now that she's done it once, I'm sure she'll be fine. But this is a woman who is not completely tech-inept, she can generally figure things out by herself, but for a first-timer, this was a crap experience. EV adoption is going to be a royal nightmare if we can't figure out how to make this easier for people.

[powderjunkie]

Serious question: were full-service gas stations a common thing because people were too dumb to do it themselves (tbf pumps used to be a little bit less user-friendly)? Or was it just a class thing?

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

So for the first time, my MIL tried to use a public Level 3 charger out in Canmore. It was her and a few friends. The vehicle was sitting around 30%, so driving back to central Calgary from Canmore would definitely sap the remaining charge. Fortunately there are at least four different Level 3-equipped charging stations in Canmore.

It did not go smoothly.

She plugged in the Level 2 charger cable then called because it was taking forever. This is because she just assumed the same cable she uses at home would charge the car at Level 3 speeds. She didn't think it would fit because the vehicle has a rubber filler in the lower portion of the connector effectively hiding it until you want to use it. Thankfully while I was on the phone helping her out, a guy who also owned an EV helped them out and the charging is underway.

Now that she's done it once, I'm sure she'll be fine. But this is a woman who is not completely tech-inept, she can generally figure things out by herself, but for a first-timer, this was a crap experience. EV adoption is going to be a royal nightmare if we can't figure out how to make this easier for people.

Too be fair there are also different levels of phones charging cables and bricks for your phone. No offense but we each hold the greatest knowledge library on earth in the palm of our hands and choose not to use it correctly. A simple search online could have told her . Or a call simply to the dealership.

The adoption to ev w9nt be a nightmare . The average person will be. Luckily after a generation or 2 of people die off the concern won't be so great.

People also said the adoption of the combustion eng8ne was humanity's downfall ( true but not in the way they meant) and bout model ts , ripped out the engines to convert them to horse drawn carriages in protest.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

So for the first time, my MIL tried to use a public Level 3 charger out in Canmore. It was her and a few friends. The vehicle was sitting around 30%, so driving back to central Calgary from Canmore would definitely sap the remaining charge. Fortunately there are at least four different Level 3-equipped charging stations in Canmore.

It did not go smoothly.

She plugged in the Level 2 charger cable then called because it was taking forever. This is because she just assumed the same cable she uses at home would charge the car at Level 3 speeds. She didn't think it would fit because the vehicle has a rubber filler in the lower portion of the connector effectively hiding it until you want to use it. Thankfully while I was on the phone helping her out, a guy who also owned an EV helped them out and the charging is underway.

Now that she's done it once, I'm sure she'll be fine. But this is a woman who is not completely tech-inept, she can generally figure things out by herself, but for a first-timer, this was a crap experience. EV adoption is going to be a royal nightmare if we can't figure out how to make this easier for people.

Was it her car and did she purchase it new? If so then the dealer should have gone through all of this as part of the delivery process when she picked up the vehicle.

[TorqueDog]

She purchased it new and the dealer did go through the high-level concept with her, but to be fair they don't have examples of "and here's what a Level 3 hybrid charger looks like and here's how you use it". They basically show you "here's where the charger goes in, and here's what your home charging plug looks like". Manufacturers should have something interactive where prospective and new owners can try it out in the showroom.

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Too be fair there are also different levels of phones charging cables and bricks for your phone. No offense but we each hold the greatest knowledge library on earth in the palm of our hands and choose not to use it correctly. A simple search online could have told her . Or a call simply to the dealership.

The adoption to ev w9nt be a nightmare . The average person will be. Luckily after a generation or 2 of people die off the concern won't be so great.

People also said the adoption of the combustion eng8ne was humanity's downfall ( true but not in the way they meant) and bout model ts , ripped out the engines to convert them to horse drawn carriages in protest.

I don't think the comparison to phone charging cables is a very good one given you can just bring your own charging cable with you and they are so ubiquitous. In any case, she did use her phone, she called me. She's turning 67, so the fact that she got as far as she did on her own without needing assistance -- had to download an entirely different app, sign up, add CC info, add funds -- is pretty good.

I just think there's a real challenge here between end-user training and infrastructure standardization. The fact that EU and US cars have entirely different ports, for example, is completely stupid.

[Wormius]

^^ Why do the charging stations require special apps to use, instead of allowing you tap your credit card? That seems unnecessary unless there’s some points or awards systems involved.

[TorqueDog]

Entirely unnecessary, but according to the Flo website, you can create an account and either a) download the app and add your credit card info to begin charging, or b) request a physical Flo card be sent to you -- at a cost of $15!

ChargeHub says: It is not necessary to be a member of the network to connect your electric vehicle to a FLO charging station. For non-members, it is possible to pay by credit card under certain conditions, directly at the selected charging station. Simply add your banking info in the required field of the mobile application. So maybe you don't need to be a member but you still need the damn app. It's not like a Shell station where you insert a debit/credit card and pre-authorize. Again, this is part of my annoyance with respect to infrastructure standardization. Why do we need an app for each goddamned charging station? It's like needing the Petro-Canada app or the Shell app to fuel up.

Finding the app is also funny considering searching 'Flo' in the App Store returns a Period Tracker as its top result.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Serious question: were full-service gas stations a common thing because people were too dumb to do it themselves (tbf pumps used to be a little bit less user-friendly)? Or was it just a class thing?

What? No.

A lot of things are purchased without service now, but that was not the case in the past. You want to buy gas? We'll pump it for you, wash your windshield, and check the oil.

People would choose which station they want to based on service.

It changed in the 80s (IIRC) when gas prices jumped significantly, and price became the primary concern.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What? No.

A lot of things are purchased without service now, but that was not the case in the past. You want to buy gas? We'll pump it for you, wash your windshield, and check the oil.

People would choose which station they want to based on service.

It changed in the 80s (IIRC) when gas prices jumped significantly, and price became the primary concern.

Except for New Jersey where the people are too dumb to know how to properly pump gasoline into their cars.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What? No.

A lot of things are purchased without service now, but that was not the case in the past. You want to buy gas? We'll pump it for you, wash your windshield, and check the oil.

People would choose which station they want to based on service.

It changed in the 80s (IIRC) when gas prices jumped significantly, and price became the primary concern.

You kinda answered the what/when, but not the why (aside from a general guess about prices, which is only part of the answer).

https://www.convenience.org/Topics/F...f-Self-Fueling

It was unheard of to pump your own gas in 1964, and it was also prohibited in most of the country, based on state fire codes. (Today self-service is still prohibited in New Jersey and Oregon, as well as in scattered municipalities across the country, particularly in Massachusetts.)
...
Gas stations had dabbled in self-serve before the 1960s. In 1947, Frank Urich opened the first self-service gasoline station in Los Angeles. The unbranded station featured rows of gleaming pumps and girls on roller skates who zoomed around to collect money and reset dispensers. At these early self-serve stations, the pumps ran by a mechanical computer that allowed an attendant to manually turn the pump back to zero for each new customer. The worker also collected money and returned for customers who pumped their own fuel.

Some unbranded stations switched to this type of self-service for gasoline, but the idea didn’t catch on with many retailers at the time. The major oil companies continued to compete with one another via unique gimmicks—such as gasoline-pump shaped salt and pepper shakers—and promoting clean restrooms. And customers remained very loyal to particular fuel brands.

So the better answers seem to be: safety and tech/logistics (stations needed someone to read the amount at the pump and reset it each time, so they might as well pump it, too).

The 1973 and 1974 gasoline shortage further fueled the drive to self-service. Long lines at gas stations prompted California to pass a law that every station had to post price signs if they weren’t already doing so. “People waited in line a long time and didn’t know what the price was until they got to the pump. Then they had to buy gas or go to another station and wait in another line,”

The public, on the other hand, loved the idea from the start. Because convenience stores could sell unbranded gasoline from self-service pumps cheaper than the branded, full-service stations, customers flocked to convenience stores for their fill ups.

“The public is interested in lower prices, and immediately went for self-service gasoline,” said Roscoe. With gasoline typically selling for 20 cents per gallon, a discount of 2 cents per gallon translated into a 10% savings. “That was significant enough to bring people in.”

Interesting that price advertising wasn't necessarily common until the 70s. I suspect price concerns correlate with the proliferation of vehicles to the middle-class. It also seems as simple as increased demand prompted new solutions...which is exactly what will happen with EVs.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

You kinda answered the what/when, but not the why (aside from a general guess about prices, which is only part of the answer).

https://www.convenience.org/Topics/F...f-Self-Fueling



So the better answers seem to be: safety and tech/logistics (stations needed someone to read the amount at the pump and reset it each time, so they might as well pump it, too).




Interesting that price advertising wasn't necessarily common until the 70s. I suspect price concerns correlate with the proliferation of vehicles to the middle-class. It also seems as simple as increased demand prompted new solutions...which is exactly what will happen with EVs.

That's twice you have brought up the class issue. Cars became ubiquitous in the 50s when the car, tire, and oil companies managed to apply enough political pressure to squeeze out electric trains and turn North America into a personal vehicle society.

Middle class adoption happened long before the 70s.

Self-serve gas was about price. The general view, before the 70s, was that self serving left you smelling like gas, and people just didn't want that (until they were motivated by price)

I remember the girls on roller blades though - those were good times.

[timun]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Serious question: were full-service gas stations a common thing because people were too dumb to do it themselves (tbf pumps used to be a little bit less user-friendly)? Or was it just a class thing?

You've done your own research above w.r.t. self-serve pumping, but I think you skipped right over one of Enoch Root's core points: they weren't simply gas stations for buying fuel, but "service stations" for having the car serviced on the whole. A lot of technology we take for granted now didn't exist at the time, and just keeping a car going involved much more ongoing maintenance.

For instance oil levels had to be checked regularly because burning and leaking was more common, with looser piston tolerances allowing blow-by and crappier gasket materials wearing out much quicker. Coolant level had to be checked too, because coolant recovery tanks weren't common until the 1970s; if your car ran hot and the coolant expanded it would simply puke out on the ground as you drove and would have to be topped up later. Bias-ply tires were much more fragile than today's radials, so tire pressures had to be checked regularly lest you cause uneven wear and unpredictable handling. Dirty windshields had to be manually cleaned with a squeegee because onboard washer systems didn't even exist until the late 1930s and weren't commonplace until the late 1950s.

Self-serve stations became popular because of cost savings to the consumers, but also because the services offered at "full-service" stations became redundant. E.g. my 13-year-old daily driver has never leaked or burned a drop of oil or coolant, etc. It's only ever seldom checked for these things because it's so reliable I don't need to check it.

[Sliver]

I worked at a CO-OP gas station in the mid-90s. Full service.

Old ladies were the mother-fataing worst. Check my tire pressure. Top me up if I'm down 0.5 PSI. Clean all my windows and mirrors. You left a streak. Fill my windshield washer fluid. INSTALL THESE NEW WIPER BLADES.

Like, these dumb bitches wanted a whole mechanic experience for free. I loathed them.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Except for New Jersey where the people are too dumb to know how to properly pump gasoline into their cars.

And Oregon.

On the topic, certainly people will have to learn the difference between a level 2 and a level 3 (DC fast) charge.

It’s pretty simple though, and for most, it only should have to be shown once, and take 30 seconds. Dealers should be showing this to customers pre drive away.

We do have the same things with phones, because different USB ports can provide diffferent amounts of power, a 10x difference or more.

Almost everyone has noticed a certain place they tried to charge their phone, and it’s not charging fast. The same kind of learning will happen with EVs, people will learn quickly what to do so that their car charges fast. At home, overnight, I don’t need the car to charge as fast.

[Fuzz]

You have a lot more faith in people than I do.

[Cappy]

My condo building recently had the option to install EV chargers using the government subsidy. Just completed and all in I paid about $3,200.00 for it. I was actually surprised that only about 1/3 of the units elected to have one installed.

Looking at EVs now to take the plunge.

Anyone have thoughts on Polestar 2? I've always loved the Volvo brand, wondering if it is as similar?

Other options i like are the Ionic 5 and the Genysis EV

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

So for the first time, my MIL tried to use a public Level 3 charger out in Canmore. It was her and a few friends. The vehicle was sitting around 30%, so driving back to central Calgary from Canmore would definitely sap the remaining charge. Fortunately there are at least four different Level 3-equipped charging stations in Canmore.

It did not go smoothly.

She plugged in the Level 2 charger cable then called because it was taking forever. This is because she just assumed the same cable she uses at home would charge the car at Level 3 speeds. She didn't think it would fit because the vehicle has a rubber filler in the lower portion of the connector effectively hiding it until you want to use it. Thankfully while I was on the phone helping her out, a guy who also owned an EV helped them out and the charging is underway.

Now that she's done it once, I'm sure she'll be fine. But this is a woman who is not completely tech-inept, she can generally figure things out by herself, but for a first-timer, this was a crap experience. EV adoption is going to be a royal nightmare if we can't figure out how to make this easier for people.

That's okay, Kenny managed to get a gas nozzle stuck in a truck, which no one on the planet has ever done before.

[ripTDR]

Well, I finally got my dream job. Good pay, benefits, pension and even though it's still trades, I'm not going to beat myself up. The only problem is, it's a hour commute both ways mostly by highway(live in the lower mainland BC). After long consideration, I've decided not to move closer but instead buy a EV. I've settled on a Tesla Model 3 long range. At my work we have outlets out back that will let me charge there for free plus the supercharging network is kind of a bonus if I need it. Kinda nervous but with the price of gas here in BC I think it's a smart move. Ordered yesterday, says a delivery time of September but realistically, prolly not until 2023 sometime.