Golf!!!2!

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It seems there were since there was confusion about the rule and people questioning the disqualification.



You misinterpreting what I said. Again, read what I ####ing said.

A ball hit into a hazard of any type does not allow for a provisional. This is a very basic rule. You hit into a hazard, you must play from the hazard, take relief from within the hazard, or drop as the rules of golf demand. There is no teeing up another from the tee box if you hit something into an area marked with yellow or red stakes.

This is pertaining to the provisional. You have to drop as per the rules of golf. You do NOT have the option of hitting another ball off the tee (a provisional) unless you first declare the original ball lost. Only once you determine the fate of the first ball can you hit a second tee ball. That is per the rules of golf and as ball is at rest in a hazard. You have the option of relief from the penalty area or hazard which is normally one club for yellow stakes or two clubs for red stakes, and on line where the ball entered the hazard or as far back as the player would like in line with the tee, and yes, this can include hitting from the tee again, as dumb as that would be. But you may NOT hit another tee ball without the declaration. This is why the player was DQed. He played a provisional in a situation where a provisional was not allowed by the rules of golf. You are not allowed to re-tee without a proper declaration on the first ball. This is the part you are missing. You don't get to declassify documents just by thinking about it and you don't get to hit another ball from the tee when your ball is in a penalty area without first declaring an abandoned ball. That is the rule.

There are a couple confusing parts in here. There is no rule of golf about having to declare a ball lost. You can always re-tee and hit your third shot without saying a thing whether your ball is in the middle of the fairway in a bunker, penalty area, wherever. In the case of the article, re-teeing was the best option since the water came right up to near the tee box. If he had just re-teed without saying anything and never found his ball in the hazard, all would have been good.

two clubs for red stakes, and on line where the ball entered the hazard or as far back as the player would like in line with the tee, and yes, this can include hitting from the tee again, as dumb as that would be.

This part is incorrect. For red stakes, you have to identify the place you crossed, imagine a line between the point of entry and the flag, and you can go straight back in that line. That is the same for yellow stakes.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

There are a couple confusing parts in here. There is no rule of golf about having to declare a ball lost. You can always re-tee and hit your third shot without saying a thing whether your ball is in the middle of the fairway in a bunker, penalty area, wherever. In the case of the article, re-teeing was the best option since the water came right up to near the tee box. If he had just re-teed without saying anything and never found his ball in the hazard, all would have been good.

This is wrong. This is exactly why the player was DQed. It is why you must make a declaration to your playing partner or a rules official of your intent. He hit a provisional ball then played a ball that no longer existed by the rules. It is why when you're playing tournament golf you need to make sure that another person outside of your "team" (if you're using a caddy) hears your declaration. Why do you think the guys on the tour are quick to tell their competitors what they are doing or call a rules official over? It isn't just to build up drama and tension for the viewers at home. When you're out there competing, be as communicative about intent as possible so people understand what you're trying to do, not only from a rules perspective but from a safety perspective.

You also have to be careful about these situations as hitting another ball without proper declaration can be construed as practicing during a round, which is a two stroke penalty, then usually an incorrectly submitted/signed card, and a trip to the Dairy Queen. Roll those practice putts if time permits, but anything away from the surface could get called. I've seen this one happen in AJGA competitions and it has happened in the President's Cup or Ryder Cup.

About declaration and why it is important, if you do not declare your intention and your opponents/playing partners continue to the search and find your ball, you have to play that original ball where it lies or take relief as per the rules of golf. Some are going to argue that hitting the provisional is an end to the search, but a provisional ball is a fallback in the event of.
Communication is what is going to save your butt and not create drama on the course.

This part is incorrect. For red stakes, you have to identify the place you crossed, imagine a line between the point of entry and the flag, and you can go straight back in that line. That is the same for yellow stakes.

That is pretty much what I just described. These aren't he best diagrams but will make it easier to understand drop options.

Yellow stakes.

NSFW!

Red stakes.

NSFW!

Those are the options. You should always try and take advantage of stroke and distance, which is why interpretation can get fuzzy. Also, before it comes up, the option to drop to the opposite side of the hazard/penalty area that many still bring up has been eliminated, so you have the options as listed during this discussion. If you're in competition, my advice is to make sure you are clear in which option you're going to take and let the members of your group, or a rules official in a real tournament, know your intention or you're opening yourself up to losing the hole or being disqualified.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It seems there were since there was confusion about the rule and people questioning the disqualification.

You misinterpreting what I said. Again, read what I ####ing said.

A ball hit into a hazard of any type does not allow for a provisional. This is a very basic rule. You hit into a hazard, you must play from the hazard, take relief from within the hazard, or drop as the rules of golf demand. There is no teeing up another from the tee box if you hit something into an area marked with yellow or red stakes.

The blue and the red are contradictory statements. That's where the confusion in what you wrote comes from. You are allowed to tee up another from the tee box if you hit something into an area marked with yellow or red stakes, such a ball just can't count as a provisional. You seem to think that re-teeing in itself acts as a provisional, and that isn't the case.



You hit into a hazard, you must play from the hazard, take relief from within the hazard, or drop as the rules of golf demand, which includes teeing up another from the tee box if you hit into an area marked with yellow or red stakes if that is where the previous stroke was played. There is no teeing up another from the tee box if you hit something into an area marked with yellow or red stakes.


See the problem?

This is pertaining to the provisional. You have to drop as per the rules of golf. You do NOT have the option of hitting another ball off the tee (a provisional)

Again, this is wrong and contradictory. You are confusing that another ball off the tee and a provisional are the same thing. This is where you are getting confused. You do have the option of hitting another ball off the tee, it is the first option provided as per the rules of golf as you can do it anywhere. What you don't have is the option to declare that option a provisional, which isn't the same thing.

unless you first declare the original ball lost. Only once you determine the fate of the first ball can you hit a second tee ball. That is per the rules of golf and as ball is at rest in a hazard.

No. You don't need to declare the original ball lost, the act of hitting the second tee ball makes that declaration for you. Not announcing a provisional (or not announcing it correctly) defaults to the stroke and distance penalty as well. You don't need to announce it, and you don't even need it to be at rest in a penalty area, lost, or out of bounds to take a stroke and distance penalty if I want, and the act of taking that drop and hitting it is what abandons the previous shot(s).

You have the option of relief from the penalty area or hazard which is normally one club for yellow stakes or two clubs for red stakes, and on line where the ball entered the hazard or as far back as the player would like in line with the tee, and yes, this can include hitting from the tee again, as dumb as that would be. But you may NOT hit another tee ball without the declaration. This is why the player was DQed. He played a provisional in a situation where a provisional was not allowed by the rules of golf. You are not allowed to re-tee without a proper declaration on the first ball. This is the part you are missing. You don't get to declassify documents just by thinking about it and you don't get to hit another ball from the tee when your ball is in a penalty area without first declaring an abandoned ball. That is the rule.

He was DQ'd for playing the wrong ball and not finishing the hole correctly. He could have declared his second tee shot a provisional and it wouldn't have affected anything until he played his first, which was abandoned by his act of hitting the second ball, declaration or not. But if he had played that ball and scored it correctly there wouldn't have been any additional penalty (beyond the stroke and distance) even if he did call it a provisional.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

This is wrong. This is exactly why the player was DQed. It is why you must make a declaration to your playing partner or a rules official of your intent. He hit a provisional ball then played a ball that no longer existed by the rules. It is why when you're playing tournament golf you need to make sure that another person outside of your "team" (if you're using a caddy) hears your declaration. Why do you think the guys on the tour are quick to tell their competitors what they are doing or call a rules official over? It isn't just to build up drama and tension for the viewers at home. When you're out there competing, be as communicative about intent as possible so people understand what you're trying to do, not only from a rules perspective but from a safety perspective.

You also have to be careful about these situations as hitting another ball without proper declaration can be construed as practicing during a round, which is a two stroke penalty, then usually an incorrectly submitted/signed card, and a trip to the Dairy Queen. Roll those practice putts if time permits, but anything away from the surface could get called. I've seen this one happen in AJGA competitions and it has happened in the President's Cup or Ryder Cup.

About declaration and why it is important, if you do not declare your intention and your opponents/playing partners continue to the search and find your ball, you have to play that original ball where it lies or take relief as per the rules of golf. Some are going to argue that hitting the provisional is an end to the search, but a provisional ball is a fallback in the event of.
Communication is what is going to save your butt and not create drama on the course.



That is pretty much what I just described. These aren't he best diagrams but will make it easier to understand drop options.

Yellow stakes.

NSFW!

Red stakes.

NSFW!

Those are the options. You should always try and take advantage of stroke and distance, which is why interpretation can get fuzzy. Also, before it comes up, the option to drop to the opposite side of the hazard/penalty area that many still bring up has been eliminated, so you have the options as listed during this discussion. If you're in competition, my advice is to make sure you are clear in which option you're going to take and let the members of your group, or a rules official in a real tournament, know your intention or you're opening yourself up to losing the hole or being disqualified.

In regards to the diagrams, you said this "on line where the ball entered the hazard or as far back as the player would like in line with the tee", which would indicate that dropping anywhere on the white line in the diagrams is ok. That is not the case though, the black line is the line that is allowed and dropping on the white line would be an illegal drop.

Show me anywhere in a rule book or rules article that says you have to declare a ball lost to hit your 3rd shot off of the tee. If you re-tee without saying a word, then that new ball is in play and you're lying 3. https://www.golfmonthly.com/videos/r...ovisional-ball

If the player fails to make it clear that he intends to play a provisional ball and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball; instead it becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 18.3b).

Where you might get in hot water for "practicing" is by announcing and hitting provisional in situations where your ball is probably not lost. But that's pretty subjective.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

In regards to the diagrams, you said this "on line where the ball entered the hazard or as far back as the player would like in line with the tee", which would indicate that dropping anywhere on the white line in the diagrams is ok. That is not the case though, the black line is the line that is allowed and dropping on the white line would be an illegal drop.

As I said, those diagrams are a little sketchy. The yellow is showing a shot from the fairway and the red is showing a shot from the tee. The issue that comes into play is the equitable distance. The black line in the yellow stakes is on line with tee and the line where you're able to drop. The red stake diagram shows where you may drop with two clubs (on the white line where the ball crossed the hazard). The black line is the line of relief by which a player may move back to their preferred distance while not being closer to the hole.

Show me anywhere in a rule book or rules article that says you have to declare a ball lost to hit your 3rd shot off of the tee. If you re-tee without saying a word, then that new ball is in play and you're lying 3. https://www.golfmonthly.com/videos/r...ovisional-ball

It appears I don't have to. Your own article repeats what I told you.

"... hence the player must inform his opponent, marker or fellow-competitor that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he goes forward to search for the original ball."

"If the player fails to make it clear that he intends to play a provisional ball and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball; instead it becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 18.3b)."

The following is exactly why you must announce intent.

"If it transpires that the original ball is lost outside of a penalty area or out of bounds, you must continue with the provisional ball, under penalty of stroke and distance. If the original ball is found in bounds, you must continue with that ball and stop playing the provisional ball."

What happens when you hit a ball that you think is OB and you re-tee without a proclamation of intent? Your competitors have no idea what you're doing, the rules officials have no idea what you're doing, and they proceed to go under their own assumptions. They go down range and find your "lost ball" in a world of hurt with the expectation you now have to play from that position, probably taking a bigger number. Do you get to claim you already hit a ball and you now lie three? Or on the other side of that coin, you blast one into the trees and play a second ball that you hit really poorly, but you find you got a massive bounce on your first ball and it's in position A. Do you get to choose to ignore that second ball and claim provisional? It is exactly why intent needs to be announced and why the article supports the practice. It is to prevent confusion and he-said-he-said arguments on the course and playing rounds under protest.

Where you might get in hot water for "practicing" is by announcing and hitting provisional in situations where your ball is probably not lost. But that's pretty subjective.

All the rules are "pretty subjective." That's why there are the Rules of Golf, the Interpretations of the Rules of Golf, and the Decisions on the Rules of Golf. This stuff has been argued over and over for as long as the game has been played and why there is still confusion, especially around provisionals. Everyone just assumes they're allowed whenever you want one. Announcing a provisional is also a means for your fellow competitors and rules officials to consider the situation and whether is meets the spirit of the rules. It's why you should always consult a rules official if you think you are doing anything that may be construed as sketchy and why you should always be communicating with your fellow competitors, so it is always on the up and up. Failure to communicate is where most protests and DQs come from.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

The blue and the red are contradictory statements.

They aren't. Read my response to nfotiu as to why. If you disagree, trying doing this in a sanctioned event and see how far you get. You're going to get called on it and you're going to suffer the same fate as the player in question. It's why the latest rules revisions pretty much all focused on intent, removing all the nit-picky stuff and focusing on intent of stroke. Make the player responsible for observing and maintaining the spirit of the rules while removing the stuff that bites players in the ass when they have no intent or control (double hits, striking a ball in motion caused by the environment, etc.). This is to establish or clarify intent of the player and make the enforcement of the rules from that decision that much easier.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

As I said, those diagrams are a little sketchy. The yellow is showing a shot from the fairway and the red is showing a shot from the tee. The issue that comes into play is the equitable distance. The black line in the yellow stakes is on line with tee and the line where you're able to drop. The red stake diagram shows where you may drop with two clubs (on the white line where the ball crossed the hazard). The black line is the line of relief by which a player may move back to their preferred distance while not being closer to the hole.

It's not at all clear where the tee is in the first diagram. I could be a dog left right or left or straight and it doesn't matter. All that matters is the black line lines up with point of entry and the flag.

It appears I don't have to. Your own article repeats what I told you.

"... hence the player must inform his opponent, marker or fellow-competitor that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he goes forward to search for the original ball."

"If the player fails to make it clear that he intends to play a provisional ball and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball; instead it becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 18.3b)."

This is what we've said all along. If the intent is to play a provisional, then you have to declare that intent. The opposite is not true. If you don't say anything, you've abandoned your first shot and the next ball is in play with a stroke and distance penalty.

The following is exactly why you must announce intent.

"If it transpires that the original ball is lost outside of a penalty area or out of bounds, you must continue with the provisional ball, under penalty of stroke and distance. If the original ball is found in bounds, you must continue with that ball and stop playing the provisional ball."

What happens when you hit a ball that you think is OB and you re-tee without a proclamation of intent? Your competitors have no idea what you're doing, the rules officials have no idea what you're doing, and they proceed to go under their own assumptions. They go down range and find your "lost ball" in a world of hurt with the expectation you now have to play from that position, probably taking a bigger number. Do you get to claim you already hit a ball and you now lie three?

This isn't ambiguous. If you say nothing, the second ball is in play no matter what.

Or on the other side of that coin, you blast one into the trees and play a second ball that you hit really poorly, but you find you got a massive bounce on your first ball and it's in position A. Do you get to choose to ignore that second ball and claim provisional? It is exactly why intent needs to be announced and why the article supports the practice. It is to prevent confusion and he-said-he-said arguments on the course and playing rounds under protest.

Again, if you say nothing, the second ball is in play no matter what.

I'm not saying it's not a good idea to let everyone know for sure that you've abandoned that shot, because it is somewhat unusual not to hit a provisional in that case, but there is no rule infraction or possibility of DQ if you don't say anything and play your second ball.

Along these if you do announce a provisional and hit a good one and get up there and see it is really gnarly for your first ball went and you don't want to look for it, then you don't have to look for it. There is no process at that point to declare it lost and if someone else finds it in bounds, then you have to go and play it or take unplayable lie, or abandon both balls and go to the tee and hit your 3rd shot off the tee again.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

They aren't. Read my response to nfotiu as to why. If you disagree, trying doing this in a sanctioned event and see how far you get. You're going to get called on it and you're going to suffer the same fate as the player in question. It's why the latest rules revisions pretty much all focused on intent, removing all the nit-picky stuff and focusing on intent of stroke. Make the player responsible for observing and maintaining the spirit of the rules while removing the stuff that bites players in the ass when they have no intent or control (double hits, striking a ball in motion caused by the environment, etc.). This is to establish or clarify intent of the player and make the enforcement of the rules from that decision that much easier.

You can absolutely re-tee, say nothing and play the second ball as your third shot in any event and any level and not create any controversy. It probably happens nearly every time water comes up to the teeing area and there is no drop zone. You just can't play your first ball if you walk up there and see it skipped out.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

What happens when you hit a ball that you think is OB and you re-tee without a proclamation of intent?

You've abandoned that ball and are now playing this one. It's extremely straight forward.

Your competitors have no idea what you're doing, the rules officials have no idea what you're doing, and they proceed to go under their own assumptions. They go down range and find your "lost ball" in a world of hurt with the expectation you now have to play from that position, probably taking a bigger number. Do you get to claim you already hit a ball and you now lie three?

Yes. That's exactly what you get to claim. You took a stroke and distance penalty.

Or on the other side of that coin, you blast one into the trees and play a second ball that you hit really poorly, but you find you got a massive bounce on your first ball and it's in position A. Do you get to choose to ignore that second ball and claim provisional?

Did you clearly announce it as a provisional? Did you find it within three minutes? If yes, you get to ignore the second ball. If not, you've abandoned your first ball and hit your third off the tee and that is now the in play ball. If you try to play the first, you will run into the same situation the Q-school player did, just flipped (not announcing a provisional when you could have/should have and then playing the wrong ball, rather than announcing one where you can't and playing the wrong ball).

It is exactly why intent needs to be announced and why the article supports the practice. It is to prevent confusion and he-said-he-said arguments on the course and playing rounds under protest.

It's why intent should be announced. It doesn't need to be for anything other than a provisional.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I understand what you are saying and in isolation and the vacuum of straight rules application is makes sense. But I think you need to read rule 18 and then 17 to really understand how they interact and the implications of what is on the table. It's why the decisions of the rules of golf is a must have so you best understand interpretations. 18.c states you must make your intent known if you are hitting a provisional. You also don't get to arbitrarily decide to play the second ball after piping your provisional, because you are not the only people with interest in finding your first ball. Your opponents have an interest in finding the ball and may be inclined to do so (this exact scenario happened to me in Moonlight Event in Florida because I was two strokes up on a guy in my group). When you proclaim the provisional is in play, that ball remains a provisional until the search time has expired, even if you and your caddy have no interest in participating in the search. It's why intent matters and why professionals aren't just dropping balls and hammering away like you're suggesting. Every stroke is money, so they keep each other pretty honest. It's why when you attend an event, you'll hear these guys talking to each other or the rules officials about what their options are, where their potential drop zones are, and then informing those involved of their intent. On everything. The idea they don't and just arbitrarily make these decisions without communication is just bizarre when their livelihood and millions of dollars are on the line. The rules are there to make competitions fair and consistent. Those rules are normally applied fairly, judiciously, and consistently, which is why intent is so important. It ain't the wild west and rando balls being dropped. The last thing you want to do is put a tournament official in a predicament because they don't know what a player was doing and having to make a decision based on an after the fact interpretation. There is a difference between beer-buddy golf and competitive golf and I think this rules discussion is just another contrast between the two worlds. Trust me, when I'm playing with my buddies or even my men's club we follow what you're suggesting to maintain pace-of-play. In a sanctioned tournament I don't go near a ball which may be in a penalty area without a competitor or rules official with me so there is clarity in intent and to validate options should there be an issue (disagreement in drop/placement of ball for example).

[Gobsgraham]

Does anyone have an Optishot or Garmin R10 that I could rent off them for a week. I am putting a hitting net in my bonus room and want to try both out before I decide which one to buy for it.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The R10 is a great product. I would let you use mine, but it's a helluva drive. The R10 really shines when you have it in a controlled environment. Using it outdoors can be a problem as it needs to be in the same perfectly flat spot for it to be effective. I find it to be very accurate and the data is very similar to the SkyTrak and not far off the TrackMan. For what you pay, it is a fantastic piece of equipment, especially if you are semi-permanently mounting it indoors.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Gobsgraham

Does anyone have an Optishot or Garmin R10 that I could rent off them for a week. I am putting a hitting net in my bonus room and want to try both out before I decide which one to buy for it.

I have an R10 and would recommend it. I think it's great and I think it seems pretty accurate. I could lend it to you for a trial also!

[nfotiu]

We have r10 in the garage and are pretty happy with it. It had a pretty nice upgrade to utilize RCT balls which gives much more accurate backspin readings. Sidespin is probably its biggest weakness when compared to the much more expensive options.

I think everyone who has used both finds the r10 to be much better than Optishot. I think the only advantage I've heard for the Optishot is it allows putting on the simulator, but putting on a simulator is not very helpful outside of being a little fun.

[nfotiu]

One thing to keep in mind for the r10 is that you need enough space. 6-7 feet behind the ball to the r10 and ball must travel at least 8 ft before impacting the net.

[Northendzone]

any chance you could post a picture as i'd love to see your setup

Originally Posted by Gobsgraham

Does anyone have an Optishot or Garmin R10 that I could rent off them for a week. I am putting a hitting net in my bonus room and want to try both out before I decide which one to buy for it.

[indes]

Another R10 owner here and can echo everyone else's statements, it's amazing for the price.

I find the accuracy really good and wouldn't get anything else until you get up to Uneekor prices myself.

[Gobsgraham]

Sounds like there is overwhelming support for the R10 over the Optishot which is the direction I was leaning. I won't bother looking at the optishot any longer.

Thanks everyone.

[Northendzone]

this video popped up on my facebook feed and i thought it was very funny:

https://www.facebook.com/reel/113175...?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V

[dirk diggler]

got some Cobra Tour MIM irons on order. saw them on the golf town deal of the day and couldn't resist. now the waiting begins