Should the Flames fire Gulutzan?

[Mr.Coffee]

This is actually a pretty easy yes for me. Not sure how people can’t see it.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by jayswin

DazzlinDino, your opinions have been well thought out and respectful, you're great to debate with even if you're on the other side.

I know you were responding to another poster, but my personal frustration with some of the Gulutzan supporters is that they were quite condescending and dismissive of criticism towards Glen, yet now that they have started turning they're pointing out the same flaws that a lot of us have pointed out for a long time.

I guess the feel of their posts is basically "When you idiots were saying it you were being negative and needlessly critical, but now that us level headed posters are starting to turn there's actually some merit because we're patient and level headed".

Both sides have been condescending and dismissive

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Both sides have been condescending and dismissive

Not really though.

[dash_pinched]

There's very fine people...on both sides.

[JJFlash]

I want to like him, I really do. The Montreal game was the last straw for me as well. A win puts us 5 games above .500 instead we go into the break 3 games above .500 in10th place. The team has not won a must win game and has not been prepared for these big games. Capable Leadership is needed to get these players in the right mind set to compete every night. The players should be driven by professional pride but the structure should come from the leadership. I don't feel this coaching staff can maximize he team's potential.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I voted yes but mostly because I want to see the reaction when the team continues to underperform. That is to say I think the problems go beyond the coach. Doesn’t mean he isn’t one of the problems but I don’t see a scenario where we get vastly different results with a different coach. But a different coach could be enough to salvage a playoff spot, which at this point would be good enough for me.

Takes time to wash away the GG stink will be the new go to phrase if we still suck. But I’m curious as to when people will turn on treliving because, with the exception of a few guys who frequently wear the goat horns, I don’t think our core is gonna get the blame, rightly or wrongly, the way the core of the Iggy era always did.

And then I think there’ll be a whole lot of hand wringing, just like there was after feaster left. Even if it eventually turns out that the problems aren’t as simple as we had hoped and replacing the coach wasn’t a one stop catch all solution.

However at the end of the day, the team is underperforming and his fault or not we need a shake up. Sometimes firing the coach provides that extra little boost, even if only temporary. It doesn’t mean he’s a bad coach but maybe he’s the wrong coach for this group.

When you see the team underperforming like this, even though fan’s version of events are most often hyperbolic and reactionary, it does leave one to wonder where the issues come from. And since 99% of people are judging superficially or purely on results, when there is no immediate answer, like crappy goaltending, I think coaching is an easy out that doesn’t rely on layered analysis of the multitude of potential problems. That doesn’t mean blaming the coach is wrong though.

All that being said, as much as I’d like to avoid joining the mass hysteria it is hard not to read this article about the firing of Mike Johnston in Pittsburgh in early December two seasons ago, after he spent 18 months on the job, and not think of the flames. Clearly we have some different issues, that team’s stars sucked and ours are having career years, but nevertheless some of the similarities make you wonder if Tre hasn’t waited too long already.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/p...mike-johnston/

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I know you were responding to another poster, but my personal frustration with some of the Gulutzan supporters is that they were quite condescending and dismissive of criticism towards Glen, yet now that they have started turning they're pointing out the same flaws that a lot of us have pointed out for a long time.

Well yeah, that's what running out of patience looks like

[F1ameOn]

About time this guy needs to go. Oilers are right on our tail, maybe a change of coaching will send a message to this team.

[the_only_turek_fan]

I think Treliving and Burke are the bigger issue.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

Not really though.

Case in point

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

This is actually a pretty easy yes for me. Not sure how people can’t see it.

Because Brad Treliving has failed to build a good hockey team.

[iamca]

Are the Flames improving?

Are they in a playoff position?

Do they pose a threat matching up against any of the top 8 teams in the Western Conference?

Are their special teams in the top 16 in the league?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Case in point

Ok. But still, not really.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by jayswin

DazzlinDino, your opinions have been well thought out and respectful, you're great to debate with even if you're on the other side.

I know you were responding to another poster, but my personal frustration with some of the Gulutzan supporters is that they were quite condescending and dismissive of criticism towards Glen, yet now that they have started turning they're pointing out the same flaws that a lot of us have pointed out for a long time.

I guess the feel of their posts is basically "When you idiots were saying it you were being negative and needlessly critical, but now that us level headed posters are starting to turn there's actually some merit because we're patient and level headed".

Well except of course for the fact that the militant anti gg people are far more guilty of pretending to know something as fact, which they clearly don’t.

This isn’t like our goaltending in the last few years where there isn’t much doubt where the issue comes from, although even then an argument could be made that poor defensive structure played a role.

It is never black and white and it is pretty funny for you to act like others have finally seen the light that everyone else knew all along.

Maybe the obnoxious part was certain posters, and I can’t recall you being one, spending thread after thread and day after day spewing low brow insults at the coach which offer no real insight. As I said in my previous post, he may be the problem, or one of several problems, but it doesn’t make all of the criticisms about him true nor does it validate some of the garbage I’ve had to read people go on and on and on about for weeks and months.

For better or for worse, in this case worse, a lot of the emotion and passion has been displayed in some really ugly ways that don’t add any value to the conversations and discussions. Again, this is in large part to the fact that most of our perception of the coach is based on the results on the ice, which funny enough, is the one place he cannot directly participate.

Is it his crappy system? His lack of adaptability? His poor personnel decisions? Poor motivational skills? The only one of those four that is remotely visible to fans is the personnel choices. The other 3 are purely speculation based on results. Fans could be totally wrong about all of those supposed shortcomings of gg, and those are some of the most common criticisms that don’t involve just hurling insults at him, and it still wouldn’t mean he’s a great coach or the right coach for this team.

Given our lack of insight to his coaching, practices, systems etc I think a much simpler evaluation needs to take place. Do we, and the GM too, think that the assembled roster is better than the current results? And if yes, the roster is better, then is there a chance the issue will be resolved with gg as coach and when is the right time to make a change if we see no possible resolution forthcoming?

So maybe the solution is for people to not be #######s and make condescending comments about fans who have a different opinion.

Just look at this page. Mr coffee makes a condescending anti gg post and then actually thanks nik’s post that it is only one group being dinks. Like come on. That’s literally the type of post that we’re all tired of.

[JohnnyB]

Terrible to be voting on firing a guy on Christmas, but come the new year, yeah. As long as they can get a really strong replacement coach, GG shouldn't be allowed to stick forever. The team should be better than it is now and they've shown what they can do when they're on their game. They are just on their game too rarely, which is largely a coaching issue.

[Calgary4LIfe]

This is a results-based business. I think it comes down to where you feel this team SHOULD be in the standings. If you feel they are a bubble team, then more patience should be shown. If you feel that this team should be firmly in the playoffs, then perhaps too much patience has been shown already.

I myself just look at Anaheim. They have been decimated by injuries, yet they are ahead of Calgary. Calgary has once again been lucky in this regard and remained fairly healthy. There is no excuse for them being out of the playoffs at the midway point of the season.

I think that Gulutzan is not part of the solution here. He has not made this team consistently good. He has had lots of ups and downs, but I don't think that anyone can say that this team has been playing above their talent level, at least not anywhere close to consistently.

I am ok with the entire coaching staff being let go - perhaps keep Gelinas around as the interim. I give him a pass since he has been shuffled up into the 'eye in the sky' position. I would rather have him over Dave Cameron anyway as an interim.

However, I do insist on this:

Hire a clear upgrade please!

After Hartley was fired, I was ok with a 'new up and coming' coach to take over. I am not sure I preferred it, but I was ok with it. I remember even wanting Nate Leaman from Providence taking over (the guy has been a winner in the NCAA). However, I think at this stage, I want a proven coach.

I am glad that the Flames didn't hire Boudreau. Is he really a clear upgrade over Gulutzan? "Yes!" you might say, considering his impressive win-loss record in the NHL. However, I offer this:

"Has Boudreau ever made his teams BETTER?" I can't say that he has. Minnesota is a deep and talented squad, and Washington were ridiculously talented. I can sit back and coach those teams to winning records, and I know nothing about coaching.

Give me a coach that has taken a team of misfits and made them better. Give me a coach that has won a Stanley Cup, or at the very least got his team to the dance and gave the eventual winners a run for their money. Give me a coach that has proven he has at least at times 'out-coached' the opposing teams.

I feel that this team really doesn't punch over their weight class. Sutter did with the Flames, and so has Hartley. Both of those coaches seemed to get more out of this team than what was expected out of them. Heck, even when losing, the Saddledome crowd gave the losing Calgary Flames a standing ovation for working so hard in that first rebuild season under Hartley - people forget stuff like that.

I just haven't seen anything to really like about this Gulutzan coached team. They play a fairly boring style of hockey for the most part, where it seems CORSI is first and foremost on the list of things to ensure you are doing well in. That's fine if you are winning, but don't make me watch boring hockey and lose while you are doing it.

I feel bad for Gulutzan and the rest of the coaching staff here. I am sure they are good people who absolutely care about their jobs and do try their best, but at some point you just have to cut the cord and move on.

Like I said, I am ok with Gelinas being the interim for now (which I know isn't ideal, but who knows?) and wait and see until the off-season to know who else is available. I am also ok with hiring Sutter or Tippett now as well.

This is how I see it right now:

This team fired Hartley because they wanted to upgrade the coaching position. That's fair. This team has been upgraded by a large margin since then, but they still aren't performing well. Arizona is at 21 points and is the (embarrassingly bad) outlier. However, the next three teams on that list are Vancouver, Edmonton and Colorado - and then the Flames.

I know I have made up my mind. Unless Gulutzan turns this team around in a hurry and goes on another 10 game winning streak, I would prefer that the Flames look for an upgrade. He hasn't been an upgrade on Hartley as promised by Treliving. Hartley could get this very team into the playoffs I would bet. It isn't a Hartley vs Gulutzan thing. It is a "find an upgrade that makes this team better". Treliving chose to fire Hartley and told us this team would take the next step, citing that Hartley can't take this team any further. Well, Gulutzan hasn't either.

It is time to start searching for a coach that can get this team to take the next step.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Well except of course for the fact that the militant anti gg people are far more guilty of pretending to know something as fact, which they clearly don’t.

This isn’t like our goaltending in the last few years where there isn’t much doubt where the issue comes from, although even then an argument could be made that poor defensive structure played a role.

It is never black and white and it is pretty funny for you to act like others have finally seen the light that everyone else knew all along.

Maybe the obnoxious part was certain posters, and I can’t recall you being one, spending thread after thread and day after day spewing low brow insults at the coach which offer no real insight. As I said in my previous post, he may be the problem, or one of several problems, but it doesn’t make all of the criticisms about him true nor does it validate some of the garbage I’ve had to read people go on and on and on about for weeks and months.

For better or for worse, in this case worse, a lot of the emotion and passion has been displayed in some really ugly ways that don’t add any value to the conversations and discussions. Again, this is in large part to the fact that most of our perception of the coach is based on the results on the ice, which funny enough, is the one place he cannot directly participate.

Is it his crappy system? His lack of adaptability? His poor personnel decisions? Poor motivational skills? The only one of those four that is remotely visible to fans is the personnel choices. The other 3 are purely speculation based on results. Fans could be totally wrong about all of those supposed shortcomings of gg, and those are some of the most common criticisms that don’t involve just hurling insults at him, and it still wouldn’t mean he’s a great coach or the right coach for this team.

Given our lack of insight to his coaching, practices, systems etc I think a much simpler evaluation needs to take place. Do we, and the GM too, think that the assembled roster is better than the current results? And if yes, the roster is better, then is there a chance the issue will be resolved with gg as coach and when is the right time to make a change if we see no possible resolution forthcoming?

So maybe the solution is for people to not be #######s and make condescending comments about fans who have a different opinion.

Just look at this page. Mr coffee makes a condescending anti gg post and then actually thanks nik’s post that it is only one group being dinks. Like come on. That’s literally the type of post that we’re all tired of.

Didn’t mean my post to be condescending, but I can see how it’d be read that way, sorry man.

Guess I thanked nik’s post just because there does seem to be a lot of arrogant posters in the defend GG camp that preach patience and call out “negativity” when I don’t really see it as negative as much as just trying to call things as people see it. But maybe I interpret those peoples posts as arrogant when they don’t intend them to be too. I dunno, whatever.

Anyway Merry Christmas!

[Macindoc]

Give him to Jan. 1 to fire Cameron and fix the special teams, or they can both go.

[Erick Estrada]

The record is what it is and pointing out that this team has underperformed under his watch is reality. If people think that’s negative then they are never going to enjoy being a part of a fan forum.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I voted yes but mostly because I want to see the reaction when the team continues to underperform. That is to say I think the problems go beyond the coach. Doesn’t mean he isn’t one of the problems but I don’t see a scenario where we get vastly different results with a different coach. But a different coach could be enough to salvage a playoff spot, which at this point would be good enough for me.

Takes time to wash away the GG stink will be the new go to phrase if we still suck. But I’m curious as to when people will turn on treliving because, with the exception of a few guys who frequently wear the goat horns, I don’t think our core is gonna get the blame, rightly or wrongly, the way the core of the Iggy era always did.

And then I think there’ll be a whole lot of hand wringing, just like there was after feaster left. Even if it eventually turns out that the problems aren’t as simple as we had hoped and replacing the coach wasn’t a one stop catch all solution.

However at the end of the day, the team is underperforming and his fault or not we need a shake up. Sometimes firing the coach provides that extra little boost, even if only temporary. It doesn’t mean he’s a bad coach but maybe he’s the wrong coach for this group.

When you see the team underperforming like this, even though fan’s version of events are most often hyperbolic and reactionary, it does leave one to wonder where the issues come from. And since 99% of people are judging superficially or purely on results, when there is no immediate answer, like crappy goaltending, I think coaching is an easy out that doesn’t rely on layered analysis of the multitude of potential problems. That doesn’t mean blaming the coach is wrong though.

All that being said, as much as I’d like to avoid joining the mass hysteria it is hard not to read this article about the firing of Mike Johnston in Pittsburgh in early December two seasons ago, after he spent 18 months on the job, and not think of the flames. Clearly we have some different issues, that team’s stars sucked and ours are having career years, but nevertheless some of the similarities make you wonder if Tre hasn’t waited too long already.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/p...mike-johnston/

Nik has been around for almost 14 years and you haven’t noticed his dry sense of humour? Come on, you’re a Simpson’s fan! Dismissively Responding to a post about people being dismissive is pretty funny! In my opinion of course.