Should the Flames fire Gulutzan?

[CsInMyBlood]

I'm with Bingo and a little shocked so many want Gulutzan fired.

I tend to think that many are overrating our team or not placing enough blame on the players.

I promise you Gulutzans system does not call for the defense coughing up the puck or firing ill advised passes up the gut.

It does not promote shooting wide or making one pass too many.

It does not advocate our defense misreading and making stupid pinches that get them caught on the wrong side of the puck.

It does not call for the same offenders taking stupid penalties every single game.

It cannot be about choosing to leave a player wide open in the slot.

I'm sure they aren't told to deflect pucks past Smith with their bodies or sticks.

It can't be about hitting as many posts or crossbars as they do.

I mean I also have some problems with Gulutzan. Matt Stajan shouldn't be on the ice at all. Brouwer was seeing too many special team minutes. Sometimes the lines he puts out at certain times is mind boggling. But on the whole I don't think its time to fire the guy.

We have seen the team play well under his system. I put the blame on many of the players misreads or mistakes more than I do on him at this point.

[zamler]

Well then I guess the team has to coach itself.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I voted NO because there's no candidate who can magically rid this team of their biggest problems which is generally individual player mistakes. The coach doesn't ask the players to turn pucks over, he doesn't tell them to miss wide open nets, he doesn't tell them to take boneheaded penalties, he doesn't tell the 4th line to be completely useless out there. There is no pill that this team can swallow to make them an instant juggernaut to satisfy everyone's expectations.

Can someone explain to me why expectations were so high for this team anyway. What exactly did we do to take ourselves from a team that missed the playoffs in 2016 and then barely made the playoffs in 2017 to an expected cup contender this season? Like, did adding Travis Hamonic who might be a slight upgrade over Derek Engelland somehow put us over the top or something? Sure the goaltending has improved, but Smith has looked human for the last month +. We still have the exact same forward group and this inconsistent team that we had last season is not surprisingly playing inconsistent again. That shouldn't be a shocker. It's a young team and young players are inconsistent. Just look at the wild swing of Sam Bennett's season so far up to date.

I still have not seen anything anyone has written that justifies firing a coach mid-playoff push that will guarantee anything. It's like people have convinced themselves that picking up Darryl Sutter or whoever will just solve all the team's problems and we'll go on a tear. It could just as easily crash and burn this season to the ground. I mean, just look at how well Sutter's old team is doing with out him behind the bench this season as a possible scenario.

Yeah, pretty much what I was typing when you posted. I totally agree.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

If anything the “no” vote is being bolstered from Oilers fans and other fan bases trolling.

Originally Posted by ricardodw

anyone that is critical of the Flames is obviously a troll and/or a fan of another team.

@ricardodw - Wild GM's post was a comment on Erick's. It was *not* an accusation or suggestion of "yes" votes being trolls or fans of other teams.

[VladtheImpaler]

If we are overrating the team and expecting too much, then the GM is an idiot for trading all the picks. Right? Based on his actions, Treliving agrees with me. I accept that we can both be wrong.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

I'm with Bingo and a little shocked so many want Gulutzan fired.

I tend to think that many are overrating our team or not placing enough blame on the players.

I promise you Gulutzans system does not call for the defense coughing up the puck or firing ill advised passes up the gut.

It does not promote shooting wide or making one pass too many.

It does not advocate our defense misreading and making stupid pinches that get them caught on the wrong side of the puck.

It does not call for the same offenders taking stupid penalties every single game.

It cannot be about choosing to leave a player wide open in the slot.

I'm sure they aren't told to deflect pucks past Smith with their bodies or sticks

... (Etc.) ...

We have seen the team play well under his system. I put the blame on many of the players misreads or mistakes more than I do on him at this point.

Sure the coach isn’t telling the players to, say, turn the puck over

But is he telling the D to stand in each corner to give Smith 2 stationary options to pass to?

Is he coaching that tip in to the middle by the winger on the breakout that some other teams easily neutralize?

Is he encouraging his D men to retreat to a defensive position when they are going to lose a close puck race rather that immediately pressure the opponent?

All of these examples, and there are a lot more, are things that have led to a lot of turnovers.

The team’s passivity in the d zone and their lousy breakouts are problems that other teams take advantage of and to me lie with the coaches.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

If we are overrating the team and expecting too much, then the GM is an idiot for trading all the picks. Right? Based on his actions, Treliving agrees with me. I accept that we can both be wrong.

Well I expected more out of the team this season as well. But it seems to me a lot of people are acting like this has nothing to do with the play of our players and everything to do with the coaching. Like the system has our players stifled to the point of making them bad players. When we win its the players overcoming GG or something.

Seems ridiculous to me.

[Bingo]

I don't think the team is being overrated, nor do I dislike the systems.

I just think it's tough to win in the NHL. The Flames have a well built team but nobody was calling for a cup or suggesting they were a top two or three team in the NHL. Coming in I saw them as roughly 10th give or take. Their star players are young and with youth you need to learn consistency, you need to learn how to prepare yourself and you need to learn how to win by losing. It takes time.

I like the systems and how the team is out playing other teams more often than not (top five team in scoring chance differential).

They may get it, they may not ... I'm on the they will side still to be honest but youth takes time and the team is relying on very young players to carry the mail.

Firing the coach is pointless in my mind

[GullFoss]

Pretty much- If the team isn't a contender on paper, Tre shouldn't have traded the picks for hamonic. He did....which suggests the flames - in management's view - should be a contender based on the talent on paper.

So, either the team is underperforming management expectations...in which case something is going to give (GG). Or management failed in its assessment of talent, in which case something is going to give (Tre).

The flames are in a state of disequilibrium. Something has to give.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm saying a voluntary poll like this always attracts the people wanting change. It's a polling reality, not a reach. Sample size is fairly irrelevant in a non-random poll.

You can't say with a straight face that there's a bunch of Gulutzan supporters that will read the thread with the poll, but won't take two seconds to click for their vote because they don't want change?

You're thinking of any number of polls in the real world where people need to actually go somewhere or be angry enough to seek out a poll and vote.

This is a poll of people who are literally all here reading a handful of hockey topics. No way you convince me that 500 posters responded (150 of which voted to keep him) and yet the Gulutzan supporters are vastly underrepresented. That's absurd.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't think the team is being overrated, nor do I dislike the systems.

I just think it's tough to win in the NHL. The Flames have a well built team but nobody was calling for a cup or suggesting they were a top two or three team in the NHL. Coming in I saw them as roughly 10th give or take. Their star players are young and with youth you need to learn consistency, you need to learn how to prepare yourself and you need to learn how to win by losing. It takes time.

I like the systems and how the team is out playing other teams more often than not (top five team in scoring chance differential).

They may get it, they may not ... I'm on the they will side still to be honest but youth takes time and the team is relying on very young players to carry the mail.

Firing the coach is pointless in my mind

10th in the West or NHL?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jayswin

You can't say with a straight face that there's a bunch of Gulutzan supporters that will read the thread with the poll, but won't take two seconds to click for their vote because they don't want change?

You're thinking of any number of polls in the real world where people need to actually go somewhere or be angry enough to seek out a poll and vote.

This is a poll of people who are literally all here reading a handful of hockey topics. No way you convince me that 500 posters responded (150 of which voted to keep him) and yet the Gulutzan supporters are vastly underrepresented. That's absurd.

I'm not just commenting on this particular subject. It's well established that when you run a poll where voters have to actively vote (as opposed to a random poll by a pollster) you get results skewed in favour of the position which is more activist and less status quo. In this case, those who actively want GG fired are more likely to vote than those who don't and those who are ambivalent or undecided.

ETA: its called self-selection bias.

[Classic_Sniper]

I think before we start handing out the pink slips, lets just look at things from a different perspective here.

We started off the season: 5-6

Since then: 13-9-3

We've lost quite a few games in there where we outplayed our opponents and lost, complete reversal from the start of the season. Our PP and PK were ranked 10th and 12th last season respectively and we have virtually the same personnel. There's definite room for improvement and we're not relying on Mike Smith to steal us game and after game anymore. I think once we start to get even the slightest of improvements on special teams and some puck luck and hopefully the 1st line starts to get it going again (and they're due), I think we can start to play at a .600 winning percentage level which should be enough to get us in to the playoffs. I'm not 100% confident that it'll happen, but I don't think it's out of the question either.

[CSharp]

Flames don't have a big enough team to play the Sutter dump chase grind hockey. He'd be fired after a season and a half if he does get hired on. GG is fine for what the Flames host on the ice if everyone on the team plays a frickin 60 minute game rather than play catch-up to go for OT all the time.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I think before we start handing out the pink slips, lets just look at things from a different perspective here.

We started off the season: 5-6

Since then: 13-9-3

We've lost quite a few games in there where we outplayed our opponents and lost, complete reversal from the start of the season. Our PP and PK were ranked 10th and 12th last season respectively and we have virtually the same personnel. There's definite room for improvement and we're not relying on Mike Smith to steal us game and after game anymore. I think once we start to get even the slightest of improvements on special teams and some puck luck and hopefully the 1st line starts to get it going again (and they're due), I think we can start to play at a .600 winning percentage level which should be enough to get us in to the playoffs. I'm not 100% confident that it'll happen, but I don't think it's out of the question either.

Could just easily say flames started season 3-1 and have since gone 15-14-3

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Not sure if this has been mentioned.

I see a lot of people mentioning Treliving potentially taking blame or heat for trading picks, meaning that he thought we were a contender and he shouldn't have traded them if we weren't.

But who says that has to payoff right now? Is our roster going to be vastly different next year? Maybe trading the picks was done because the move could payoff over several seasons, not just this year, and he knew that if he waited that the opportunity to improve our team would be gone. It's not like he could guarantee that the same, or even similar, players with similar contracts would be available at the price he wanted to pay when we are contenders.

Had he been trading for pending UFAs and late season rentals like Sutter always did and we still failed then I get it.

Hopefully worst case scenario is he traded a pick outside the top 10 and he knew there was a chance that he wasn't trading the 25th overall pick but thought that the trades still made sense because they could payoff over multiple seasons, even if we didn't contend this year.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Not sure if this has been mentioned.

I see a lot of people mentioning Treliving potentially taking blame or heat for trading picks, meaning that he thought we were a contender and he shouldn't have traded them if we weren't.

But who says that has to payoff right now? Is our roster going to be vastly different next year? Maybe trading the picks was done because the move could payoff over several seasons, not just this year, and he knew that if he waited that the opportunity to improve our team would be gone. It's not like he could guarantee that the same, or even similar, players with similar contracts would be available at the price he wanted to pay when we are contenders.

Had he been trading for pending UFAs and late season rentals like Sutter always did and we still failed then I get it.

Hopefully worst case scenario is he traded a pick outside the top 10 and he knew there was a chance that he wasn't trading the 25th overall pick but thought that the trades still made sense because they could payoff over multiple seasons, even if we didn't contend this year.

You don't trade a 1st rounder woth no lottery protection because you hope eventually the team will be good but dont expect it to payoff this season.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Not sure if this has been mentioned.

I see a lot of people mentioning Treliving potentially taking blame or heat for trading picks, meaning that he thought we were a contender and he shouldn't have traded them if we weren't.

But who says that has to payoff right now? Is our roster going to be vastly different next year? Maybe trading the picks was done because the move could payoff over several seasons, not just this year, and he knew that if he waited that the opportunity to improve our team would be gone. It's not like he could guarantee that the same, or even similar, players with similar contracts would be available at the price he wanted to pay when we are contenders.

Had he been trading for pending UFAs and late season rentals like Sutter always did and we still failed then I get it.

Hopefully worst case scenario is he traded a pick outside the top 10 and he knew there was a chance that he wasn't trading the 25th overall pick but thought that the trades still made sense because they could payoff over multiple seasons, even if we didn't contend this year.

And even if that were true, if the team doesnt make the playoffs this year and next year's roster isnt significantly different then whats the point of trading the 1st?

I mean, if we dont make the playoffs this year and dont change anything, thats like doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result....whats that the definition of again?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

You don't trade a 1st rounder woth no lottery protection because you hope eventually the team will be good but dont expect it to payoff this season.

Barely making the playoffs is not a "payoff". A payoff is going deep.

Obviously Tre will be disappointed if we miss out and the pick has any lottery chance but maybe he figured even if we miss we will be super close and he's willing to take that 1-2.5% chance if we are right out of the playoffs. Maybe the scouting staff didn't like the look of the top 3 so they figured the risk was minimal.

Not to mention that maybe it was the only way the trade got done for that price and he didn't want to have to add.

I'd happily give up 1 lottery pick this year if it means a cup next year or the year after or the year after etc.

People are way too obsessed with the insanely slim chance we pull a Philly and draft top 3.

More likely we finish in bottom 10 without the players he's acquired via trade. At some point you have to move on from being obsessed with top picks and actually try to win and accept that there's some risk with doing so. No one wants to be Edmonton. It doesn't work.

[Red]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

I'm with Bingo and a little shocked so many want Gulutzan fired.

I tend to think that many are overrating our team or not placing enough blame on the players.

I promise you Gulutzans system does not call for the defense coughing up the puck or firing ill advised passes up the gut.

It does not promote shooting wide or making one pass too many.

It does not advocate our defense misreading and making stupid pinches that get them caught on the wrong side of the puck.

It does not call for the same offenders taking stupid penalties every single game.

It cannot be about choosing to leave a player wide open in the slot.

I'm sure they aren't told to deflect pucks past Smith with their bodies or sticks.

It can't be about hitting as many posts or crossbars as they do.

I mean I also have some problems with Gulutzan. Matt Stajan shouldn't be on the ice at all. Brouwer was seeing too many special team minutes. Sometimes the lines he puts out at certain times is mind boggling. But on the whole I don't think its time to fire the guy.

We have seen the team play well under his system. I put the blame on many of the players misreads or mistakes more than I do on him at this point.

This teams strength is the D. Which of the D are playing better than pre GG?
Seems like all the D forgot how to hockey since GG took over.
And many forwards as well.

Last year GG had to change the system because it was too complicated for the players. That's an admission of failure of the coaches. They did not have a suitable system.
But that was last year. What's going on this year? Is he back to making the players confused or are the players just regressing for other reasons?

If he had some previous success in the NHL then you could preach patience. But he doesn't. Why are we giving him that much rope? If we don't have a decent run this playoff we will look back at these 2 years as a major waste of time.
Who here thinks this team can win a couple rounds of playoffs?