Brad Treliving needs to go

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Thanks, but I am still on keto, so dumplings are no-go, but beef and broccoli can still work. Not sure where hot & sour soup falls.

Usually right in my lap, but that's a different conversation.

[Brad Marsh]

Wow this discussion/debate got 1000x better over the last 5 pages or so! Great job CP! Both sides of the debate engaging in actual dialogue, and even though we're far from consensus, everyone making good points and counter-points. The CP I've grown to love! It's nice when both sides of the debate are cordial and drop the escalating sarcasm.

I certainly see both sides of this coin. I actually have really liked Brad Treliving as GM. It's funny, and maybe it's one of the reasons that I'm not a GM or in hockey or anything like that, but I've actually really liked most of Treliving's work "at the time". Most of what he's done has had my support. Trades, free agent signing, RFA extensions, etc. So many times I've come away thinking he really is the Wizard! That would include the Neal signing, and even the Hamonic trade. At the time they seemed like the right moves and I was excited about them.

But here we are 7 years in and it feels like the sum is less than the parts, and that somehow we've digressed. It's crazy.

The difference is that as a fan, I have the luxury of being wrong about any given transaction, but there's a different level of accountability for the GM.

I agree with the poster that cited the Sam Bennett pick and our failure at nailing that #1 C spot with our highest draft pick ever. That one stings and accounts for a lot of the other problems, at least as far as the roster is concerned and the philosophy of building p the middle.

But I think by far the greatest contributor to the team's lack of success over the last few years in particular has been the coaching decisions. Even Peters, but also Ward, and especially Gulutzen. Not often that a GM will get 4 cracks at a head coach.

So here we are today.......I feel really good about Sutter. I'm in the camp that would like to see a bigger shake-up and re-tool, but the likelihood of that happening is getting lower by the day (although could still happen). Instead it looks like the team might give it another shot with this core group under Sutter - and I think I can live with that. Gaudreau is still super dynamic, and I'm still a fan of Monahan. Some Sutter "types" acquired (Pitlick) or rumored (Coleman) could be some of the missing ingredients - I could see it working. So I'd be ok with that. Especially if Markstron can stay healthy. The margin between winning and losing is so slim, that we just need a couple of things that went wrong last to go right this year, and this entire thing could turn around fairly quickly. I do think that could happen.

But I also agree that there are a couple of critical decision points that are on the immediate horizon that will be fascinating to follow: the Gaudreau contract and what to do with the Tkachuk situation. Both of those will in large part define the Treliving era for me at this point, and while the jury is still out on both, we should have a pretty good read fairly soon on how those two situations have been handled.

[GreenLantern2814]

In 2017, 18 and 19, Treliving made 15 picks total - he’s had four total drafts where he picked 5x or less.

The last two drafts, they selected 15 players. Including 2nd rounders both years - so, we can bitch about a lack of direction all we want, but at least for the last 18 months, they haven’t done anything brain-breakingly stupid.

No overpay for Stone or Hall.

No awful UFA signings since Neal.

Hired a proper coach.

Didn’t pay 1st and 3rd to retain a 37 year old D.

Remove the Smith/McDonald picks from the record, and his 2nd round resume is

-Rasmus
-OK
-Dube
-Parsons
-Kuznetzov
-Stromgren

Nothing wrong with that.

Drafting since Treliving took over has been solid. Not spectacular, but solid.

-Two top-6 wingers - Chucky and Bread
-Two top-4 D - Rasmus, Vali
-6th D - OK
-Two Middle-6 forwards - Dube, Bennett
-One Norris trophy winner - Fox

That’s eight NHLers out of seven drafts. If you don’t consider Kylington graduated, fine.

I’m fine moving off Brad and the whole scouting department, don’t get me wrong, but they seem to find players reasonably well, given their lack of selections.

[AustinL_NHL]

Been enjoying the last few pages but had to step in reading these two posters.

Originally Posted by neo45

I think he had full autonomy and was the decision maker yes, based on everything him and Burke told us. Also his comments on what type of team he wants to build tracks with the moves he made early on (Jiri is probably right that the philosophy changed at some point)

Plus I think it’s more likely that if you felt unprepared for a draft you would defer down the ladder to the scouting department as opposed to up the ladder to the President.

So who really pushed for Hunter Smith? Much more likely it was Button or a regional scout than Burke at that point

How can you possibly think a GM who was only on the job for 7 weeks had complete control over the draft? The scouting team literally builds prospect profiles over the course of multiple years based on the drafting philosophy of the people in charge. You think Treliving came in, said "Scrap all the work you've done over the last year or two and start over. We're doing this my way."? Yea, ok.

It very likely was Button or a regional scout, but that's because they were building their prospect rankings/profiles based on the philosophy set by the man in charge. I can guarantee you that Treliving didn't come in and change the drafting philosophy in his first 7 weeks. That would've been a disaster.

Hell, even if you want to blame him for the 2014 draft, go ahead. The results since then have been tremendous based on the value the Flames have extracted based on their draft slots.

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

IMO, Tod Button is as good a scout as his brother Craig as a GM
Too bad, Craig didn’t have 20 yrs to see if he got lucky a couple times

I mean, considering the majority of draft models have the Flames ranked right near the top in terms of the value they've been able to extract from their draft picks based on their draft slots (especially since Treliving took over), I guess that means Craig was an excellent GM?

Hate on Tod all you want, but the statistics show that the Flames have been an excellent drafting team with him in charge the last half decade or so. Absolutely no idea how you can argue the Flames have been a poor drafting team, when they've graduated 7 players from Treliving's first 3 full drafts (2015-17), including 5 players outside of the 1st round.

It's hard to ask for much better draft pick value then what the Flames have done under Treliving. There's been some misses like with every other team, but they've graduated prospects at a pretty rapid pace, and quality players at that.

Not to mention in the few years since then, most prospect models and micro-data charts have loved the majority of Flames selections

Find me 20 teams that have been better than the Flames at finding value based on draft slots in that time frame if you think Tod is so bad. Better yet, find me 10. Hell, find me 5 teams.

Hint: you won't

[TheChief]

You can say whatever you want about Sutter as a GM..one thing he didn't do was sit on his hands.



He was able to actually obtain the top UFA of the summer one year. (Brad may have the record for making the most phone calls though...that counts for something, right?)



He basically did us a favor by jettisoning Dion. Hindsight being 5050.



Yeah he didn't draft good, and yeah he traded lots of picks.... His home runs turned into franchise players for us... He was rather unlucky with the injuries the final Mike Keenan season, I think the flames had their BEST teams since the cup team under Sutters management.

[TheIronMaiden]

At this point lots of people want to see change, and since they arent seeing it in the roster, they want it with the management.

[TheChief]

I dont blame other teams for not wanting Sean Monahan. Honestly if you trade John your in full rebuild, so really what can Brad do?


Bedard is being drafted in 2023, just saying.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Been enjoying the last few pages but had to step in reading these two posters, as it's actually funny how off they are with their posts.



How can you possibly think a GM who was only on the job for 7 weeks had complete control over the draft? The scouting team literally builds prospect profiles over the course of multiple years based on the drafting philosophy of the people in charge. You think Treliving came in, said "Scrap all the work you've done over the last year or two and start over. We're doing this my way."? Yea, ok.

It very likely was Button or a regional scout, but that's because they were building their prospect rankings/profiles based on the philosophy set by the man in charge. I can guarantee you that Treliving didn't come in and change the drafting philosophy in his first 7 weeks. That would've been a disaster.

Hell, even if you want to blame him for the 2014 draft, go ahead. The results since then have been tremendous based on the value the Flames have extracted based on their draft slots.



I mean, considering the majority of draft models have the Flames ranked right near the top in terms of the value they've been able to extract from their draft picks based on their draft slots (especially since Treliving took over), I guess that means Craig was an excellent GM?

Hate on Tod all you want, but the statistics show that the Flames have been an excellent drafting team with him in charge the last half decade or so. Absolutely no idea how you can argue the Flames have been a poor drafting team, when they've graduated 7 players from Treliving's first 3 full drafts (2015-17), including 5 players outside of the 1st round.

It's hard to ask for much better draft pick value then what the Flames have done under Treliving. There's been some misses like with every other team, but they've graduated prospects at a pretty rapid pace, and quality players at that.

Not to mention in the few years since then, most prospect models and micro-data charts have loved the majority of Flames selections

Find me 20 teams that have been better than the Flames at finding value based on draft slots in that time frame if you think Tod is so bad. Better yet, find me 10. Hell, find me 5 teams.

Hint: you won't

Ya, I actually quite like our scouting staff. Because of the last couple of years, I’m actually feeling quite confident in their drafting. Quite the contrast to a few years ago ( before Treliving).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheChief

You can say whatever you want about Sutter as a GM..one thing he didn't do was sit on his hands.



He was able to actually obtain the top UFA of the summer one year. (Brad may have the record for making the most phone calls though...that counts for something, right?)

IIRC Markstrom was the top UFA goalie when he was signed and Tanev wasn’t exactly low ranked as a UFA either (Pietrangelo was the top).

[TheChief]

^^ Not exactly the same as signing at the time a 26 year old UFA. Markstrom and Tanev both being north of 30

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheChief

^^ Not exactly the same as signing at the time a 26 year old UFA. Markstrom and Tanev both being north of 30

No, they are not the same signing. Thanks. I wouldn’t have known that 26 =/= 30. But I thought the point was signing a top ranked UFA.

And most people thought he overpaid Jaybo.

[dino7c]

Markstrom was 4th in voting for a major NHL award the Summer Brad signed him and the top UFA in his position...he also took him from the Oilers

[TheChief]

to compare a 26 year old UFA D (I believe youngest player to ever hit UFA) to a 30 year old late bloomer G...


Lets put it this way, the market for Jbouw would have been at the time 29 teams.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TheChief

to compare a 26 year old UFA D (I believe youngest player to ever hit UFA) to a 30 year old late bloomer G...


Lets put it this way, the market for Jbouw would have been at the time 29 teams.

He wanted to play in Western Canada though

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheChief

to compare a 26 year old UFA D (I believe youngest player to ever hit UFA) to a 30 year old late bloomer G...


Lets put it this way, the market for Jbouw would have been at the time 29 teams.

He paid a 3rd and a player for rights that normally cost a 5th or so. And then he signed him to a really rich contract. And sent some good players packing to do it.

It’s a lot easier to sign a UFA if you guarantee them their ask, which Sutter essentially did by paying a big price just for rights.

[bubbsy]

So many teams being active and creative to improve their roster.

No way this thread should drop off the first page views until the genius in charge makes even a single move....

[Macman]

I think Brad is also in a tough spot, you don't want to deal the good players you do have for less than what you think is at least fair. Who knows what the offers are, better to stick with the team you have and become a seller at the deadline.

Maybe they think the team is good enough, probably need at least 2 top six forwards and a top 4 D yet.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Macman

I think Brad is also in a tough spot, you don't want to deal the good players you do have for less than what you think is at least fair. Who knows what the offers are, better to stick with the team you have and become a seller at the deadline.

Maybe they think the team is good enough, probably need at least 2 top six forwards and a top 4 D yet.

If he's been trying to move Monahan for 12+ months as rumoured, and can't find a deal, then perhaps what he thinks of his own players is incorrect. If they think the team is anywhere near good enough then they are horrible at their job and incredibly stubborn.

That being said, tomorrow is the big day. It's time Treliving gets back to operating at a "Treliving circa 2015" level. Hopefully this is just a case of a Wizard arriving precisely when he means to.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

So many teams being active and creative to improve their roster.

No way this thread should drop off the first page views until the genius in charge makes even a single move....

Who has improved though?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Who has improved though?

Apparently, Edmonton. They added Darnell Nurse, Mike Smith, Tyson Barrie, and Ryan Nugent-wait a sec