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Old 03-17-2019, 06:42 PM   #181
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Took my son to Hometown Hockey today in Lethbridge, it was so much fun! Jamie Macoun was signing autographs and I talked to him about MacInnis and Nieuwy and we both agreed the Forever a Flame was silly. He told me the he is head of the Alumni and that expect as soon as next season that it will be fixed and their numbers/banners will be fixed!
This is good news and it makes sense if no one has worn number 14 since Fleury one day his number will be retired

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Old 03-17-2019, 07:21 PM   #182
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Well “not liking Fleury” is a pretty big bucket and isn’t that where most people who don’t want him honored land? I think most everyone would agree his on ice accomplishments merit it, but some just can’t stomach how he has carried himself. I guess that’s not exactly the same as not liking him, but it’s close isn’t it?

I’m in the boat of not really liking they guy but wanting to honor him based on what he accomplished on the ice. And despite his issues , he never cheated the game as far as I am aware.
If anything, the extracurricular stuff Fleury was doing hurt his game. Although a lot of this stuff came to a head when he wasn't with the Flames.
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:06 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Gaudreau is a Ninja View Post
Took my son to Hometown Hockey today in Lethbridge, it was so much fun! Jamie Macoun was signing autographs and I talked to him about MacInnis and Nieuwy and we both agreed the Forever a Flame was silly. He told me the he is head of the Alumni and that expect as soon as next season that it will be fixed and their numbers/banners will be fixed!
That's funny.

I was coming to post the exact same thing. I was in the lineup and the guy infront of me had that exact conversation with Jamie. It was probably you. I was so happy to hear that they are going to fix those banners now.

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Old 03-17-2019, 10:35 PM   #184
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Default Some things.

First, Forever a Flame is and always has been one of King's failed Flames babies. Almost as bad as his half baked "Calgary Next napkin plans"

Second, On Kipper - highly doubtful Kipper wants much done If anything he lives was living in Black Diamond (unless he recently went back to Finland which I vaguely recall hearing recently) and he couldn't even show up to the Iggy thing. But Hey. Maybe he'll show up if they retire his jersey.

Third, On Fleury TL/DR - I have strong feelings about this. Growing up Fleury was my hero, I went to his Hockey school in 94. I was given a stick from him personally for going from 12 mins in a drill we did when I was brand new to hockey never done a hockey drill in my life and totally didn't hear what the coach on the on ice session was saying to doing it in 30 seconds by the end of the week. He was so impressed by my success (which he didnt witness because he only did one on Ice session with each group throughout the week) and which was really just a matter of myself getting familiarity with the drill lol--that he decided to give me his stick. Meanwhile, you think that would be the memory that sticks out in my head. But instead it's him staring down my mothers shirt and making ####ty remarks right in font of his own son (who was in my group) and his wife. I followed his career right from day 1 to the bitter end. Even when he left the game despite how it ended despite his piggish behaviour I would have said give him his retirement and lets honour the guys on ice records. But his story sadly doesn't end there and a lot of people don't really know this or knew about this but right after he left Calgary in an interview in one of the papers where he got traded to I cant remember if it was NYR or Chicago. But he basically called Calgary a classless organization and said we were nothing without him and that he carried us on his back for so many years and he was glad to be playing in a real organization. Hell though, even that wasn't enough to sour me on him. It was a few years after he finally retired, after the comeback trial and things weren't going so well for him money wise. When he came back to Calgary and walked into King's office apparently demanding they pay him what was owed to him that Calgary owed him for how they screwed him over and he deserved to be paid. That is what soured my on the guy. Problems, demons, all his issues aside. his own arrogance. This to me is why they will never retire his number here. He had little respect for the people and fans that made him and supported him.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:02 PM   #185
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Second, On Kipper - highly doubtful Kipper wants much done If anything he lives was living in Black Diamond (unless he recently went back to Finland which I vaguely recall hearing recently) and he couldn't even show up to the Iggy thing. But Hey. Maybe he'll show up if they retire his jersey.
Pretty sure Kipper hasn't lived in the Calgary area for years. IIRC he looked like he was going to split time between his southern Alberta house and Finland in retirement, but then quietly and suddenly sold his place here and hasn't really been back since.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:36 PM   #186
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My distinction:

forever a flame - exceptional impact on the franchise through the game of hockey. A top player in the league, contributed significantly to flames regular season success, post season success and the development of players that came after them

Jersey retirement - everything required for "forever a flame" + outsized contribution to "the community."

Vernon, iginla and McDonald meet the distinction for jersey retirement. Macinnis and Nieuwendyk do not.

Fleury makes the distinction for Jersey Retirement and detracts from it at the same time. You can't say the guy isn't a hero for what he's done to open up the conversation about child sexual abuse scandal. And overcoming the demons those experiences left him with. And making a positive impact on other people fighting their own demons and addiction. Yet he's also done some very negative things. And if you focus on the negatives, I think the answer is "no, this isn't a guy for which we can retire a jersey."

But, when you sit back and look at his body of work, I think that the end of the day he gets his jersey retired. The positives outweigh the negatives by a mile and he's had to fight battles and carry burdens like none of the others in the conversation.
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:58 PM   #187
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I honestly missed this if it was ever answered but where was Kipper for Jarome's retirement ceremony?
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:04 PM   #188
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I honestly missed this if it was ever answered but where was Kipper for Jarome's retirement ceremony?
Gone fishin'
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:31 AM   #189
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Thinking ahead to the new building, I think they need to totally disassociate 'Forever a Flame' with banners in the rafters. 'Forever a Flame' can run along a concourse wall in chronological order - I'd make it an old-school hockey card design; clean, simple, and consistent:



Kill the debate, and set a 500 gp cutoff (reg season + playoffs - which gets OG guys in like Loob 450+73 and Reinhart 438+76, and cuts out Reichel 425+26 and Glencross 418+6). Goalies = 300+.

Lemelin, Peplinski, Reinhart, McDonald, Hunter, Vernon, Macoun, Loob, MacInnis, Otto, Suter, Nieuwendyk, Roberts, Fleury, Iginla, Regehr, Conroy, Kipper, Giordano, Stajan, Backlund, Brodie, (very soon to be Monahan)

It's 22 guys, including 4 still active. Maybe a few too many, but it tells the whole history of the team. If you stuck around for 500 games, you were doing something right. I'd rather have something that recognizes Matt Stajan than not have anything that recognizes Theo Fleury.

Of note, Tomorrow night, Giordano will tie Regehr for 2nd in all-time GP on the Flames with 826. (MacInnis 803, Fleury 791)


On the other side of the building, recognize individual and team achievements. Get those stupid division and conf. championship banners down from the roof - only Stanley Cups (and maybe President's Trophy) banners are acceptable. Pick a point on the wall - to the left, chronologically acknowledge team achievements (I think only Pres Trophy, Clarence Campbell, and Stanley Cup); to the right do individual player trophies. MacInnis may not hang from the rafters as he should, but at least he'll appear here with his Conn Smythe Trophy. Nieuwnedyk will have his Calder and King Clancy. I didn't think Lanny would be here, but he won the Masterson in '83. Vernon may hang from the rafters and not Kipper, but Miikka will be here with his Vezina and Jennings.

I would put a plaque up where Iginla's Hart Trophy should be, explaining how the votes broke down, and naming the writer (perhaps including a photo of the writer).

The legends will be recognized in all 3 places. The greats will be in 2. The very goods will be in 1.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:32 AM   #190
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A "Hall of Flame" concept in the concourse would be an interesting idea in any new building. Of course, it's up against advertising space. I like the idea though. Even bring in some of the old Corral photo gallery.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:48 AM   #191
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A "Hall of Flame" concept in the concourse would be an interesting idea in any new building. Of course, it's up against advertising space. I like the idea though. Even bring in some of the old Corral photo gallery.

They could set them up in all the pick up truck boxes that will be scattered around the concourse.
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:54 AM   #192
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A "Hall of Flame" concept in the concourse would be an interesting idea in any new building. Of course, it's up against advertising space. I like the idea though. Even bring in some of the old Corral photo gallery.
They have this in Ottawa, and it's quite well done. There were only like 4 dudes to honour though, so it didn't take up much room.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:21 PM   #193
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A "Hall of Flame" concept in the concourse would be an interesting idea in any new building. Of course, it's up against advertising space. I like the idea though. Even bring in some of the old Corral photo gallery.
Sell it as a major sponsor opportunity.
Years ago I was involved in creating the "Coast Energy Corridor" for a local energy company. It was pretty lame, but at the time the Flames were selling sponsorship opportunity really cheaply. We paired it with the Institution of Modern Art (which didn't last) so it was just about the corporate sponsor.
I imagine a sponsor would be really keen on the idea.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:53 AM   #194
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Thinking ahead to the new building, I think they need to totally disassociate 'Forever a Flame' with banners in the rafters. 'Forever a Flame' can run along a concourse wall in chronological order - I'd make it an old-school hockey card design; clean, simple, and consistent:

On the other side of the building, recognize individual and team achievements. Get those stupid division and conf. championship banners down from the roof - only Stanley Cups (and maybe President's Trophy) banners are acceptable. Pick a point on the wall - to the left, chronologically acknowledge team achievements (I think only Pres Trophy, Clarence Campbell, and Stanley Cup); to the right do individual player trophies. MacInnis may not hang from the rafters as he should, but at least he'll appear here with his Conn Smythe Trophy. Nieuwnedyk will have his Calder and King Clancy. I didn't think Lanny would be here, but he won the Masterson in '83. Vernon may hang from the rafters and not Kipper, but Miikka will be here with his Vezina and Jennings.


The legends will be recognized in all 3 places. The greats will be in 2. The very goods will be in 1.
I 100% agree with this...

Tier 1: Retired
Lanny
Vernon
Iggy

Tier 2: Individually Recognized in the concourse
Lanny
Vernon
Niewy
Macinnis
Fleury
Iginla
Kiprusoff
Giordano


Tier 3: Team History (Hall of Fame type area with photos, etc.)
Franchise
Inception & Relocation
Corral
Saddledome
1986
1989
2004

Players
Lanny, Vernon, Niewy, Macinnis, Fleury, Iginla, Kiprusoff, Giordano, Nillsson, Mullen, Reinhart, Regehr, Hunter, Backlund, Suter, Loob

Builders
Owners, D.Sutter, Badger Bob, Al Cotes, Bearcat Murray, Ed Whalen, Peter Mahar

Last edited by Funkhouser; 03-21-2019 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:57 AM   #195
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I love the idea of having a small Hall of Flame in the new arena. One of the best ideas I've heard in a long time. That could be really cool.

Also, if 2 and 25 are retired as of next year, this would be a good time to make it official -- the Flames don't have a 25 on the team this year for the first time in a while so there wouldn't be any need to make someone switch.
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Old 03-21-2019, 12:10 PM   #196
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A "Hall of Flame" concept in the concourse would be an interesting idea in any new building. Of course, it's up against advertising space. I like the idea though. Even bring in some of the old Corral photo gallery.
+1 for bringing in some of the Corral history and the magnificent photos hanging on the walls there.
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Old 03-21-2019, 12:24 PM   #197
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I love the idea of having a small Hall of Flame in the new arena. One of the best ideas I've heard in a long time. That could be really cool.

Also, if 2 and 25 are retired as of next year, this would be a good time to make it official -- the Flames don't have a 25 on the team this year for the first time in a while so there wouldn't be any need to make someone switch.
Would be cool if this area was accessible to the public, not just ticket payers. Perhaps part of the public benefit we keep hearing about??
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Old 03-21-2019, 12:27 PM   #198
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12
2 9 10 12 14 25 28 30 34

If we were starting from scratch today, Iginla is the only number I'd have retired.

I don't think there is any argument that 9 and 30 are discernibly more deserving than any/all of 2, 14, or 34. You can order them however you want, but I think they are within inches of each other, and Iginla is a foot ahead.

I think it's okay to 'reset the bar' without cutting 9 and 30 down. Hanging FAF banners right beside the 'legit' banners was just the most hamfisted way of trying to achieve that.

I think there are two major logic fails that people can't get past:
1. MacInnis is a top 10 player at his position in the history of the game, and played over 300 more games as a Flame than McDonald. Most people can find at least 20 goalies and 20 wingers who are 'greater' than 9 and 30 (personally, there are only 6 defensemen who I'm sure are 'greater' than MacInnis).
2. Honouring Nieuwendyk and Vernon, but not Fleury. However you want to order the five guys who have been honoured however you want, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who believes Fleury is a tier below, let alone 6th out of those 6.


The absence of 14 is the most damning thing. For the same reason, the baseball HHOF is a joke without Rose, Bonds, or Clemens. Now that 12 is legitimately retired, I don't think many would have much of a problem with FAF if it included Fleury.
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Old 03-21-2019, 12:34 PM   #199
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Hall of Flame(s) or Ring of Fire?
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Old 03-21-2019, 12:57 PM   #200
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12
2 9 10 12 14 25 28 30 34

If we were starting from scratch today, Iginla is the only number I'd have retired.

I don't think there is any argument that 9 and 30 are discernibly more deserving than any/all of 2, 14, or 34. You can order them however you want, but I think they are within inches of each other, and Iginla is a foot ahead.

I think it's okay to 'reset the bar' without cutting 9 and 30 down. Hanging FAF banners right beside the 'legit' banners was just the most hamfisted way of trying to achieve that.

I think there are two major logic fails that people can't get past:
1. MacInnis is a top 10 player at his position in the history of the game, and played over 300 more games as a Flame than McDonald. Most people can find at least 20 goalies and 20 wingers who are 'greater' than 9 and 30 (personally, there are only 6 defensemen who I'm sure are 'greater' than MacInnis).
2. Honouring Nieuwendyk and Vernon, but not Fleury. However you want to order the five guys who have been honoured however you want, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who believes Fleury is a tier below, let alone 6th out of those 6.


The absence of 14 is the most damning thing. For the same reason, the baseball HHOF is a joke without Rose, Bonds, or Clemens. Now that 12 is legitimately retired, I don't think many would have much of a problem with FAF if it included Fleury.
I enjoy reading thoughtful posts like this on the topic, even if I don't agree on everything. I find it an interesting debate.

While there is merit to saying Iginla is above all others, you can't forget the only Stanley Cup this team has won and the early history of the club. Honoring that history and different eras is part of the reason for retiring numbers so to me Lanny is an absolute no brainer.

And I love Chopper but top 10 defenseman in the history of the game? Not many would agree with that. Orr is in a class by himself, the greatest at any position to ever play. Harvey, Lidstrom, Potvin, Robinson, Bourque are in the next echelon IMO. Then you go through guys like Doughty, Pilote, Keith, Langway, Coffey, Pronger, Karlsson, Niedermayer, Savard, Lapointe, Park, Chelios, Chara et al. Maybe Macinnis is in that 3rd group group somewhere but he's certainly not at the top IMO.
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