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Old 06-10-2018, 08:53 PM   #13801
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Last year Kessel was 7th overall in scoring.
Over the last 2 years combined he is 8th in scoring.
Over the last 3 years combined he is 15th in scoring.
Over the last 4 years combined he is 14th in scoring.
Over the last 5 years combined he is 11th in scoring.
Over the last 6 years combined he is 9th in scoring.
Over the last 7 years combined he is 8th in scoring.
Over the last 8 years combined he is 6th in scoring.

His worst season in recent years was 59 points in 82 games. That was still good for 11th in right-winger scoring according to NHL.com (66 points would have been good for 4th). Otherwise he's been in the top 10 RW since 2009-2010 season where he missed several games. Maybe most importantly, his 54 points in 61 playoff games is only behind Crosby in the last 3 playoffs.

Without getting into a debate about what elite is, he's 30 years old on an amazing contract, produces in the playoffs, is a right-winger who shoots right, and has been a top 10 producer in the league for a decade now. I'd give up a hell of a lot. If Brodie+Bennett is the foundation, there's no way I would say no. I'd throw in the 2019 first even if they didn't ask because I don't think my conscious would let me rip of a contemporary so badly.
Brodie- Bennett is obviously not enough for Kessel as you point out. Adding the first is probably fair value since as per your analysis, Kessel really has been consistently excellent. I’m just not sure that’s something this team should be doing.

And really Pitt likely has little interest in Brodie Bennett as two foundational pieces. One sure thing for two question marks.
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Old 06-10-2018, 09:02 PM   #13802
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The rumour being discussed was:

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asking price could be a two-way, top-nine left wing, a middle-pair defenseman and maybe a prospect.
I think Bennett / Brodie + a prospect could fall in that zone.

The problem is I'm not sure where Jonathan Bombulie gets that from, as that package seems like the part that's lower than would be expected.
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Old 06-10-2018, 09:04 PM   #13803
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Brodie + Bennett + Fox for Kessel
Sign Tavares and Hickey
Win Cup

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Old 06-10-2018, 09:05 PM   #13804
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And really Pitt likely has little interest in Brodie Bennett as two foundational pieces. One sure thing for two question marks.

Well I agree, but some seemed to scoff at the idea of the Flames doing that.

For me, Gaudreau, Monahan, Hamilton and Tkachuk are the only assets off the table for Kessel (assuming Pittsburgh doesn't add). Assuming NTC are waived, I think I'd be willing to give Giordano up for a one-for-one. And then a combination of 3 of any other assets like Backlund, Frolik, Ferland, Brodie, Fox, Valimaki, Jankowski, Kylington, Andersson, 2019 first, Bennett, I'd have no problem giving up.
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Old 06-10-2018, 09:14 PM   #13805
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Brodie + Bennett + Fox for Kessel
Sign Tavares and Hickey
Win Cup

Thank you and good night.
NHL18 at its finest
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Old 06-10-2018, 09:44 PM   #13806
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NHL18 at its finest
Yes, because trades and UFA signings only happen in NHL 18 and not in the real NHL.

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Old 06-10-2018, 10:39 PM   #13807
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Check out Petterson's NHLE based on his performance in Sweden. There is a high probability he's going to be very good...
This is true, but Petersen is still a long way from the NHL, if recent rumours are to be believed. Petersen is reportedly reluctant to play in NA this season
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:42 AM   #13808
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Well I agree, but some seemed to scoff at the idea of the Flames doing that.

For me, Gaudreau, Monahan, Hamilton and Tkachuk are the only assets off the table for Kessel (assuming Pittsburgh doesn't add). Assuming NTC are waived, I think I'd be willing to give Giordano up for a one-for-one. And then a combination of 3 of any other assets like Backlund, Frolik, Ferland, Brodie, Fox, Valimaki, Jankowski, Kylington, Andersson, 2019 first, Bennett, I'd have no problem giving up.
Not me, they have pretty much identical contracts at this point. Gio plays the tougher position and makes his partners into all stars. The biggest thing on Kessel's part is being 4 years younger but I'd still take Gio who is in fantastic shape.
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:44 AM   #13809
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Cap hits** not contracts. Giordano would be owed $5,000,000 more than Kessel with the same length.

Giordano, as you said, is not insignificantly older. He's going to be 35 entering this season. Is he still going to be worth 6.75M when he's 38? I'd easily bet on Kessel being worth 5M (actually salary) when he's 34.

But I'd do the trade moreso due to the team make up. RW depth of Ferland, Frolik, Brouwer has to be the worst in the league. And who do they have coming up? 24 year old Foo? 6th rounders Philips and Tuulola?

People complained, rightfully, that Brouwer shouldn't have got PP time but he's also the best right-handed shot they have because they have literally no one else when Versteeg went down. A pretty important factor even if his main goal was to stand in front of the net. Unless you want to count Lazar.

Hamilton, Brodie, Hamonic, Stone is far from an ideal 'top 4' with Giordano gone. But it's far better than their right wing depth. And more importantly, you have Valimaki, Fox, Andersson, Kylington.

It's a hockey trade, dealing from a position of strength to a fill a position of absolute weakness.
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Old 06-11-2018, 07:09 AM   #13810
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Check out Petterson's NHLE based on his performance in Sweden. There is a high probability he's going to be very good.
I agree their blueline is not good, but they are also a very attractive city and I think they can accelerate their re-build by attracting some quality free agents.

The Joe Levi pick was a whiff so far, as was the Virtanen pick - they'd be a lot scarier if they hadn't blown those.
Could you imagine if they take Nylander/Ehlers and Tkachuk instead of those two? Canucks just may have been an attractive place for Tavares instead of only having the ability to give him the largest 7 year contract without the opportunity to win. Just goes to show how critical it is for rebuilding/bad teams to hit on their top 10 picks as you earn that early pick based off a bad 82 game season and not hitting on it makes for a total waste of that season. Petterson looks like a hit though unfortunately.

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Old 06-11-2018, 08:37 AM   #13811
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Losing Gio would leave a far bigger hole than losing Brodie or Bennett. Or losing both.



Neither have provided much positive value the last couple of years.
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:49 AM   #13812
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Cap hits** not contracts. Giordano would be owed $5,000,000 more than Kessel with the same length.

Giordano, as you said, is not insignificantly older. He's going to be 35 entering this season. Is he still going to be worth 6.75M when he's 38? I'd easily bet on Kessel being worth 5M (actually salary) when he's 34.

But I'd do the trade moreso due to the team make up. RW depth of Ferland, Frolik, Brouwer has to be the worst in the league. And who do they have coming up? 24 year old Foo? 6th rounders Philips and Tuulola?

People complained, rightfully, that Brouwer shouldn't have got PP time but he's also the best right-handed shot they have because they have literally no one else when Versteeg went down. A pretty important factor even if his main goal was to stand in front of the net. Unless you want to count Lazar.

Hamilton, Brodie, Hamonic, Stone is far from an ideal 'top 4' with Giordano gone. But it's far better than their right wing depth. And more importantly, you have Valimaki, Fox, Andersson, Kylington.

It's a hockey trade, dealing from a position of strength to a fill a position of absolute weakness.

Why would that matter though? The more restricted resource is cap space, so I think we should judge him on his value with respect to that.
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:51 AM   #13813
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I really want no part of Kessel on the Flames. Gebis a goodnpkayer butnincould see him completely falling off a cliff in a year or two similar to Dany Heatley.

Trading Gio for him would be a colossal mistake and I would also be opposed to anpckage that included Brodie, Bennett AND one of our top 4 d prospects. 2 of the 3 I could likely get behind but all 3 of those pieces would be a trade I feel the Flames would lose long term.

Brodie+Bennett+Kylington/Fox/Andersson/Valimaki is a great trade package but shouldn’t be used to acquire anyone over 27 in my opinion. That is why I go back to Hamilton where I think he can get a package around a top forward 25 of younger. Having said that I am opposed to selling low on Brodie and Bennett where others think we should cash in while the value is there.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:06 AM   #13814
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I really want no part of Kessel on the Flames. Gebis a goodnpkayer butnincould see him completely falling off a cliff in a year or two similar to Dany Heatley.

Trading Gio for him would be a colossal mistake and I would also be opposed to anpckage that included Brodie, Bennett AND one of our top 4 d prospects. 2 of the 3 I could likely get behind but all 3 of those pieces would be a trade I feel the Flames would lose long term.

Brodie+Bennett+Kylington/Fox/Andersson/Valimaki is a great trade package but shouldn’t be used to acquire anyone over 27 in my opinion. That is why I go back to Hamilton where I think he can get a package around a top forward 25 of younger. Having said that I am opposed to selling low on Brodie and Bennett where others think we should cash in while the value is there.
You’re consistent.

I think one thing in favour of trading Hamilton to Toronto for Nylander or Mariner is Dubas is a numbers guy so he probably appreciates how valuable Hamilton is, might be the right guy to trade with. But that’s just pure speculation.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:34 AM   #13815
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I think trading Gio would be a huge backward step for Calgary. Unless Calgary has given up trying to contend over the nest few years, and it's a rebuilding move.

Gio is the glue that holds the whole d-men team together, you lose him and I can't imagine how bad the defense will be.

And for Kessel?

I don't Brodie holds much value by himself, as he's been that bad, but some team will value him somewhat. I still think Bennett holds decent value, and if you trade those two with one of our better prospects, you'd better get someone younger than Kessel back IMO. I'd rather get Hoffman to be honest.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:35 AM   #13816
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I really want no part of Kessel on the Flames. Gebis a goodnpkayer butnincould see him completely falling off a cliff in a year or two similar to Dany Heatley.

Trading Gio for him would be a colossal mistake and I would also be opposed to anpckage that included Brodie, Bennett AND one of our top 4 d prospects. 2 of the 3 I could likely get behind but all 3 of those pieces would be a trade I feel the Flames would lose long term.

Brodie+Bennett+Kylington/Fox/Andersson/Valimaki is a great trade package but shouldn’t be used to acquire anyone over 27 in my opinion. That is why I go back to Hamilton where I think he can get a package around a top forward 25 of younger. Having said that I am opposed to selling low on Brodie and Bennett where others think we should cash in while the value is there.
Heatley fell off a cliff because the guy can't skate and couldn't keep up with today's NHL. Kessel, on the other hand, is one of the fastest skaters in the league. So unless he suffers some debilitating leg injuries, he should be able to stick around for a while. Plus his shot is lethal and fills a void that left with Iginla.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:37 AM   #13817
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Heatley fell off a cliff because the guy can't skate and couldn't keep up with today's NHL. Kessel, on the other hand, is one of the fastest skaters in the league. So unless he suffers some debilitating leg injuries, he should be able to stick around for a while. Plus his shot is lethal and fills a void that left with Iginla.
Iginla is still a free agent
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:52 AM   #13818
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Losing Gio would leave a far bigger hole than losing Brodie or Bennett. Or losing both.



Neither have provided much positive value the last couple of years.
Yeah this is a tough one. I hated the contract initially but two years into it he's still playing at a high level and I feel he has maybe two more years of being able to play top pairing which takes him to close to the end of the deal. I also think that Treliving has amassed a lot of organizational depth at the position and if you have faith in some of these young players it may be a move you can make but I think it has to be a deal you can't refuse and not a matter of shopping the player. At the end of the day I don't see Gio getting moved based on his value as captain and leader on the team. If a veteran defensemen is going to get moved it's probably going to be Brodie.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:53 AM   #13819
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Why would that matter though? The more restricted resource is cap space, so I think we should judge him on his value with respect to that.
Did you ask why would actual money matter?

By the time these contracts end the cap ceiling could be 90M+. Even now we're looking at some pretty big discrepancy in spending. There's far more teams trying to stay in budget then trying to reach the ceiling. Salaries, if they aren't already, will be just as important than actual cap to the average team. It's easy to play fantasy GM and talk as though $5,000,000.00 is nothing but that's 5 million dollar differences. It's a big deal even for NHL owners.

If Kessel at 34 has declined, he's probably still going to be worth 5M to one of the many non-cap teams that wants a top-6 winger.

If Giordano at 38 has declined, I don't think there will be many takers wanting a 6.7M top-4 defender.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:55 AM   #13820
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Gebis a goodnpkayer butnincould see him completely falling off a cliff in a year or two similar to Dany Heatley.
Happen to smell burnt toast?
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