Flames young goalies who didn't pan out

[Sandman]

Matt Keetley and Medvedev-both made me sad.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Why?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Because he picked him up to get his Enterprise rental.

[Phaneuf_Phan]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Why?

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Take a look at the 1990 NHL draft - specifically picks #11 & #20

[TheScorpion]

My podcast with Ryan Pike this week will dig into topic this a fair bit, by the way.

[Pliddy]

As you go further down the trail of broken tears that has become our goalie development path I cannot understand why on earth we have kept Jordan Sigalet for the past 8 years. Were all piling on our scouts and who we drafted (which is deserved) but the other part is how are we developing them once they are here. In the 8 years Jordan has been in the organization we have had 5 Head Coaches and yet every time we keep Sigalet. Even if we make the arguement that our scouting department never gave him the raw clay to work with, show me a veteran that thrived here - Elliott, Johnson, Hiller, Ramo, Lack all found Calgary a goalie graveyard. The only point to argue would be Smith and he was reduced to going to Edmonton. There must be a good reason why we have kept him this whole time, I just can't see it

[Braden]

No mention of Laurent Brossoit yet who was a 6th round pick thats racked up 68 NHL games this far with mixed results.

[Pliddy]

Originally Posted by Braden

No mention of Laurent Brossoit yet who was a 6th round pick thats racked up 68 NHL games this far with mixed results.

I'm pretty sure we only had him 1 year and he really only started getting meaningful time a full 5 years after we let him go. What ever claim we can put in on his development is pretty weak

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Pliddy

As you go further down the trail of broken tears that has become our goalie development path I cannot understand why on earth we have kept Jordan Sigalet for the past 8 years. Were all piling on our scouts and who we drafted (which is deserved) but the other part is how are we developing them once they are here. In the 8 years Jordan has been in the organization we have had 5 Head Coaches and yet every time we keep Sigalet. Even if we make the arguement that our scouting department never gave him the raw clay to work with, show me a veteran that thrived here - Elliott, Johnson, Hiller, Ramo, Lack all found Calgary a goalie graveyard. The only point to argue would be Smith and he was reduced to going to Edmonton. There must be a good reason why we have kept him this whole time, I just can't see it

Sigalet does a fairly good job with the goalies. The main problem is that the flames have had a lot of awful goalies and bad luck with injury troubles to the prospects.

A lot of teams have the same issues until they get a good one to run with for a while. The Flames have had two all stars in the last 3 seasons and Rittich might become a serviceable #1. The problem is more availability of high quality players more than what the coach is doing.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Sigalet does a fairly good job with the goalies. The main problem is that the flames have had a lot of awful goalies and bad luck with injury troubles to the prospects.

A lot of teams have the same issues until they get a good one to run with for a while. The Flames have had two all stars in the last 3 seasons and Rittich might become a serviceable #1. The problem is more availability of high quality players more than what the coach is doing.

Still a common theme under Hartley, Gulutzan, Peters was substandard goaltending yet they all got fired (Peters was probably going to get fired regardless the way the team was trending) and the man in charge of coaching up the goaltenders remains. I find it curious that the coach in charge of the most underperforming position of the team over Treliving's GM tenure is the last man standing from the original staff he inherited when he became GM.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Sigalet does a fairly good job with the goalies. The main problem is that the flames have had a lot of awful goalies and bad luck with injury troubles to the prospects. .

So get Price and Sigalet will do a solid job?
Chicken and egg argument? Poor tools for the master carpenter? No way.

Ramo (one time considered best goalie outside NHL); Berra (Euro league champ), Elliott (some top end stats before coming to CGY) - not quite Lack-level crap.

Just what is Sigalet's job? Work to turn mediocre goalies into decent NHLers? Help good goalies become great? Or to be friends with great goalies?

You work with 10+ goalies one of them has to become a solid starter (jury is still out on BSD) or they need to hire a new guy. Simple as that.

The Flames special teams were bad, the next year they fired the coach responsible for the PP and went out and hired a specialist coach to improve them. Next thing you know, they improved - a lot.

Same players, better coaching.

Sigalet (and Tod Button) must have really compromising pics of Flames ownership to keep their jobs so long.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Sigalet does a fairly good job with the goalies. The main problem is that the flames have had a lot of awful goalies and bad luck with injury troubles to the prospects.

A lot of teams have the same issues until they get a good one to run with for a while. The Flames have had two all stars in the last 3 seasons and Rittich might become a serviceable #1. The problem is more availability of high quality players more than what the coach is doing.

You lost me there. Any qualification? How did you make this determination?

[united]

Jonathan Willis had some fascinating numbers in his recent article:
https://theathletic.com/1828498/2020...-in-the-draft/

62% of top-six forwards were first-round picks, and 84% were picked in the top 100.
49% of top-three defencemen were first-round picks, and 77% were picked in the top 100.

Just 26% of starting goalies were first-round picks, and 68% were picked in the top 100. For backups, it's 13% and 52%.
Of goalie tandems, 40% are picked in the fourth round or later (or not picked at all) compared to 28% of all forwards and 31% of all defencemen.

The risk of taking a goalie in the first two rounds relative to the success of the other positions is huge. Get your skaters early and spend some late-draft lottery tickets on goalies if needed, especially factoring in our age curve knowledge.

[dino7c]

Trevor Kidd panned out? maybe for the Flames first round opponents

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mickey76

I don’t know if that is sarcasm or genuine but I’ll answer and you can mock me if that was supposed to be green text.



The Flames have traded up in the first round exactly one time in their entire existence, one time when a player was so completely compelling that they needed to give up players in order to pick higher. The year was 1990 and they traded with New Jersey to move up from 20 to 11. So we could get the stellar Trevor Kidd. NJ also needed a goalie and took the next best goalie available at 20 a guy named Martin Brodeur.

I am fully aware of the history, but I don't really see how it is relevant here in a discussion of Flames goalies who never panned out. Brodeur was never part of the Flames organisation, and he most certainly did.

Who knows what would have happened in 1990 had the Flames decided to keep their pick, but I am sceptical that they ever would have drafted Brodeur. The team seemed laser-focused on Trevor Kidd heading into the draft, and for good reason. I am not convinced they ever had the same infatuation with Brodeur.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

...Same players, better coaching.

Sigalet (and Tod Button) must have really compromising pics of Flames ownership to keep their jobs so long.

I understand the frustration with Sigalet (although I don't really agree with it—without knowing a lot about his job and performance in it, it is difficult to feel very strongly about him one way or another).

But I really don't get the assertion that Tod Button is bad at his job. Where does this come from? The Flames seem to have had a fair bit of success in maximising the value of their draft picks the past several years. 2015 was a coup.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Bleeding Red]

But I really don't get the assertion that Tod Button is bad at his job. Where does this come from? The Flames seem to have had a fair bit of success in maximising the value of their draft picks the past several years. 2015 was a coup.

While 2014 was a bust.

It depends on how you gauge success, I guess. One article I read note # draftees who turned pro as a gauge, another # of NHLers, and yet another #NHLers on the drafting team.

I don't think just turning pro is a good enough gauge. I look over the Button years and I see a lot of names with 0 games played. For every 2015 year there is a 2014 year. And yes, I understand that the draft is a crapshoot to a degree, but if that's the case, why not just use central scouting and scrap the department? How much worse would the record be?

He's been there since 1997 - in charge since 2001. What the Flames were looking for in the draft in 2003 is likely very different than what they wanted in 2012, or 2019.

Maybe it's time for some new eyes.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

While 2014 was a bust.

The Flames got some good returns from the 2011 and 2013 drafts, and have three players from the 2016 and 2017 draft already playing on their roster, with another who is a candidate for the 2020 Calder Trophy playing in NYR.

In the past decade I find myself much happier with draft outcomes than not. Yes, 2014—the first year of Treliving's tenure as a NHL GM—was not great, but that's one bad year, followed by a great year, and now a few more that also look really promising. That looks more than fine to me, especially considering the number of picks the Flames have used, and what rounds they are finding talent.

It depends on how you gauge success, I guess. One article I read note # draftees who turned pro as a gauge, another # of NHLers, and yet another #NHLers on the drafting team.

I don't think just turning pro is a good enough gauge. I look over the Button years and I see a lot of names with 0 games played. For every 2015 year there is a 2014 year. And yes, I understand that the draft is a crapshoot to a degree, but if that's the case, why not just use central scouting and scrap the department? How much worse would the record be?

If you look at every NHL team, you will see lots and lots of drafted players listed with 0 games played. I personally have been judging the current admin on the quality of player that they are finding with the picks they have to work with. Button's team has drafted Andersson, Kylington and Dube in the second round. They have drafted Fox in the third, and Mangiapane in the sixth. To add to that, sixth-rounder Matthew Philips is an AHL scoring star in his second pro season; sixth-rounder Emilio Pettersen just signed his first NHL deal after his second college season; sixth rounder Dmitry Zavgourodniy just finished destroying the QMJHL before his 20th birthday; seventh rounder Dustin Wolf was named the WHL goalie of the year in his draft-plus-one season.

I don't see a lot about which to complain in that group, and I have not even included any of the three first round picks the Flames have used in the last four drafts; two of which are NHL players. So, yeah, it could be much, MUCH worse for the Flames. And no, I would disagree that for every 2015 Button's drafts have also included a miserable 2014. There has been ONE 2014; all of Button's subsequent drafts have looked quite good.

He's been there since 1997 - in charge since 2001. What the Flames were looking for in the draft in 2003 is likely very different than what they wanted in 2012, or 2019.

Maybe it's time for some new eyes.

If the Flames are still mining high-quality talent from the picks that they use at the draft, then I see no good reason for a change.

[Bingo]

I think Button's record in Calgary is more reflective of the GM in charge. The staff didn't look good at all for many a year (08 09 10, 11 was great, 12 and 13 pretty rough).

2014 was Treliving's draft but he wasn't in charge yet.

From 2015 the staff have drafted

Rasmus Andersson
Oliver Kylington
Andrew Mangiapane
Matthew Tkachuk (not a scouting boon)
Tyler Parsons
Dillon Dube
Adam Fox
Juuson Valimaki
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matthew Phillips
Eetu Tuulola
Adam Ruzicka
Dmitry Zavgorodniy
Emilio Pettersen
Jacob Pelletier
Dustin Wolf

Not sure this is the time to let go ... the Flames scouting results have made many a list of late for teams without picks that have made impactful decisions.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yes, 2014—the first year of Treliving's tenure as a NHL GM—was not great, but that's one bad year, followed by a great year, and now a few more that also look really promising.

I don't really consider 2014 to be a Treliving draft either. The scouts would have been working from whatever criteria Burke (and Feaster to start the season) had set for them.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

And no, I would disagree that for every 2015 Button's drafts have also included a miserable 2014. There has been ONE 2014; all of Button's subsequent drafts have looked quite good.

You are looking at recent history. I am looking at Button's tenure as a whole - that includes '05, '06, '09, '13, and '14 - all of which produced 5 NHL guys (out of 36 picks) to play a good chunk of games for the Flames (Erixon & John Gilmour didn't play here). So for every solid run there is a dud. ('06 looks a lot like '14 to me.)

If we are only looking at the last few years, then in the context of this thread, Sigalet is doing just fine and the Flames have no goalie issues.

This is where we need to know exactly where the bar is set. Is Sigalet doing a great job of turning crap goalies into solid NHLers, or is he not helping good goalies become great? Is Button great at drafting AHLers, or is he not finding top line talent?

Yes, I am not the GM, and they know better than I. I would just like to know what it is that keeps these guys around while everyone else gets shown the door.