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Old 04-28-2014, 10:02 AM   #21
SuperMatt18
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
That the voters don't know what they're doing.

Weber should win this year, but he won't. Keith will win, but he really doesn't even deserve a nomination.
You are underestimating Keith defensively.

He may have a 55% offensive zone start but he is still a really good d-man at both ends of the ice.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:02 AM   #22
Erick Estrada
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Is it me or has Ashasx morphed into Moon?
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:03 AM   #23
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Makes sense.

The people who decide the winner of an award obviously don't know who deserves to win the award.
Ovechkin was almost named 1st team all-star last year for TWO positions.

Yes, they don't know what they're doing, and they are heavily biased to the east.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:03 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
That the voters don't know what they're doing.

Weber should win this year, but he won't. Keith will win, but he really doesn't even deserve a nomination.
I'd like to hear your explanation for this.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:04 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by SuperMatt18 View Post
You are underestimating Keith defensively.

He may have a 55% offensive zone start but he is still a really good d-man at both ends of the ice.

Excellent, even.

Keith is one of the best all-around defencemen in the entire NHL. He's not just some offensive guy like Karlsson.

Watching Blackhawks games helps. He's always the best defenceman on the ice by a wide margin.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:05 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by strombad View Post
Excellent, even.

Keith is one of the best all-around defencemen in the entire NHL. He's not just some offensive guy like Karlsson.

Watching Blackhawks games helps. He's always the best defenceman on the ice by a wide margin.
I'm not saying he's like Karlsson. Keith was excellent offensively this year while only justifiably being decent defensively.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:05 AM   #27
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Is it me or has Ashasx morphed into Moon?

Nailed it.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:07 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMatt18 View Post
You are underestimating Keith defensively.

He may have a 55% offensive zone start but he is still a really good d-man at both ends of the ice.
Can you really be the best defenseman in the league if you're not going against the best players on the other team?
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:09 AM   #29
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I'm not saying he's like Karlsson. Keith was excellent offensively this year while only justifiably being decent defensively.

Watch the Hawks bra. Keith is one of the top 30 defensemen in his own end in the entire NHL.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:13 AM   #30
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Watch the Hawks bra.
The Hawks have their own bra?
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:15 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by strombad View Post
Watch the Hawks bra. Keith is one of the top 30 defensemen in his own end in the entire NHL.
I do watch him. He's decent in his own end, but certainly not top 30 in the league defensively.

No stats indicate otherwise.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:18 AM   #32
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Giordano and Doughty should round out the top 5. You can't help but think that Giordano's injury cost him a top 3 spot as well as East Coast bias hurting him and Doughty
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:19 AM   #33
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The Hawks have their own bra?

Yeah, it's called the "Keith" and it offers some of the best support
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:20 AM   #34
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Yeah, it's called the "Keith" and it offers some of the best support
That makes sense. Good support, two Cups, what's not to like?
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:21 AM   #35
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Cut off is Giordano.
crazy grapic/chart. Would mean so much more if i had any idea what the axis are defined as???

Is the Y-axis representing time on ice to quality of comp., meaning the smaller the number the better?? Is the X-axis showing the percentage of offensive zone starts to defensive zone starts, where again, the smaller number is better? For whatever the purpose of the chart, is the position 0,0 the best possible outcome?

sorry if stupid question
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:32 AM   #36
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crazy grapic/chart. Would mean so much more if i had any idea what the axis are defined as???

Is the Y-axis representing time on ice to quality of comp., meaning the smaller the number the better?? Is the X-axis showing the percentage of offensive zone starts to defensive zone starts, where again, the smaller number is better? For whatever the purpose of the chart, is the position 0,0 the best possible outcome?

sorry if stupid question
Q of Comp % is basically a time-weighted average of minutes played by a certain players' opponents. The higher the number, the more the player is facing opponents that play big minutes (ie. better players).

If a player has more defensive zone starts (X-axis) while maintaining a high possession percentage (bluer dot), that means he is pushing the play up the ice consistently.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:38 AM   #37
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Anyone have the teams overall O vs D start %?

I would expect Chicago to start in the O zone more then the Flames. In fact, purely guessing I wouldn't be surprised if the Flames D start vs Chicago D starts lines up pretty close to Keith vs Gio starts.

Same with Weber. They start a ton in the D zone.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:43 AM   #38
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I like the "one of these things is not like the others" comment... yeah, Weber isn't, note the big red circle there. I mean Keith is too; it's actually hilarious how people were all over Subban for winning despite not being very good defensively when Keith is demonstrably worse at defense (on this scale of elite NHL defensemen anyway). But I don't even get how Weber is nominated this year. Such a reputation-based thing.

Article from during the olympics comparing the Canadian D-men to each other is pretty on point here... http://canucksarmy.com/2014/2/17/the...ly-exaggerated
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:01 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Jason14h View Post
Anyone have the teams overall O vs D start %?

I would expect Chicago to start in the O zone more then the Flames. In fact, purely guessing I wouldn't be surprised if the Flames D start vs Chicago D starts lines up pretty close to Keith vs Gio starts.

Same with Weber. They start a ton in the D zone.
Chicago: 34.4% offensive (#4 in the league), 27.9% defensive, 37.8% neutral. Breaks down to a 55% offensive start in ExtraSkater's terms (which ignores neutral zone starts).
Calgary: 30.5% OZ, 32.8% DZ, 36.7% NZ = 48.1% offensive-to-defensive.
Nashville: 30.8% OZ, 33.9% DZ, 36.9% NZ = 47.6% offensive-to-defensive.

Very good point, especially seeing the gap between Nashville and Chicago.

Even taking that into account, Keith is still getting 'easier' assignments compared to Weber, Chara, Giordano etc. But the rate at which he's translating that into positive possession and offense, which maintaining very good work in his own zone is outstanding.
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:12 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbsy View Post
crazy grapic/chart. Would mean so much more if i had any idea what the axis are defined as???

Is the Y-axis representing time on ice to quality of comp., meaning the smaller the number the better?? Is the X-axis showing the percentage of offensive zone starts to defensive zone starts, where again, the smaller number is better? For whatever the purpose of the chart, is the position 0,0 the best possible outcome?

sorry if stupid question
While it really depends on what you value in a defenceman, I would say that you've got the intended argument of the chart. The chart is making note of how Keith faces easier competition (though the scale on the Y-axis is deceptive - it's really basically 28.9% for Keith vs. 29.6% for Gio/Weber and 29.9% for Chara), but also starts in the offensive zone far more often, leading to more offensive chances.

PPG:
Keith 0.772
Giordano 0.734
Weber 0.709
Chara 0.519

Overall, I'd say Gio most deserves it from a statistical perspective, especially given how bad the Flames generally were. But, how bad the Flames generally were works against him, as does missing 18 games due to injury.
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