Impact of arena negotiation tactics and election interference on STHs?

[Table 5]

I was already on the fence about my season ticket share this year, as I'm not really happy with the "value" of an NHL game these days. It's just such an expensive proposition (money and time wise), that staying home and watching on TV is perfectly fine with me...even with a subpar Sportsnet product. I think it will be even worse with a new stadium...the stuff that will improve will be the fluff.

Ken Kings arrogant performance sealed the deal for me. No thanks.

[SweepToTheCup]

I dropped my share of a group tickets five years ago when I had my first child.

Had the chance to get back in this year after coming out of the trenches.

Doesn't pass the cost/benefit test for me and tough to ascribe any loyalty value now that it is clearly just a business. That might change over time, we'll see.

[Envitro]

So I've been more and more disillusioned as a STH over the last 4-5 years. Nothing to do with the on-ice performance, rather more with how we're treated as an STH.

I hate to be the guy that says "Oh well, team X does this for their STH, and we get nothing", but in reality we get treated with a pretty good level of indifference by the organization compared to pretty much every other STH group in the league. We're taken for granted.

The countless numbers of stories that I hear from other STH's in other markets is mind-numbing. From exclusive events, to let's call them "Oiler Bucks", to actually valuable STH gifts, free jerseys with lettering credits, to everything in between.

We used to treated get well, and somewhere after the '04 run and 2010 the actual value of being a STH has been decreasing more and more.

I just keep getting sick and tired of hearing all of these things that other STH group get around the league (and I travel a lot to other barns, talk to their STH's). I know what that sounds like, but damn it if everyone else is getting treated at a certain level then why can't we?

The Flames' answer is always, "well we can increase the price of your tickets then to pay for that stuff". While a fair statement, why can't they find a way to show us some love for standing by the team through thick and thin without gouging us some more?

I really don't care for the annual Johnny/Monny art print and the 1 STH session at the 'Dome every year. It's nice to hear from the brass but make us feel a bit more appreciated.

Now tack on the Arena failures and the bullcrap that goes along with, and I'm just really dejected about the whole thing. The failure to present their vision for CalgaryNext appropriately, the ZERO visual presentation on the Vic Park option, and it just seems like they're half-assing it treating us with more and more indifference. If you want the public to invest in something, show us what we're going to be buying FFS.

Oh, and it's really nice that they haven't consulted any STH's on what they'd like to see in the arena. You know, the same people who go to 35-45 games every damn year. They might have some likes/dislikes to share and an opportunity to provide some input into the design process might seem like a smart thing to do. It's not like we are a stakeholder of any kind.

As a STH and as a taxpayer, we're paying for 66% of this rink or more.

/rant

[calf]

I just keep getting sick and tired of hearing all of these things that other STH group get around the league (and I travel a lot to other barns, talk to their STH's). I know what that sounds like, but damn it if everyone else is getting treated at a certain level then why can't we?

That really does sound exactly like what Ken King is saying.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Backlunds_socks

Maybe because we, the people, feel they are trying to take money, we contributed, for private, for profit, enterprise?

You, or the people, don't speak for everyone. Which is what I think is the point. Doesn't make your position or other peoples position right or wrong, just different.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Backlunds_socks

Maybe because we, the people, feel they are trying to take money, we contributed, for private, for profit, enterprise?

Need more commas

[Russic]

I'm probably on my way out. Every season ticket holder meeting they touch on how we can spend our entertainment dollars anywhere, and they thank us for spending it with them. They're being sincere, but every time they do I start wondering about the awesome things I could be doing with my season ticket money. I was already wavering on whether the entertainment value I pull out of the games is worth the cost.

I agree with many of the posters here: business is business. On the other hand, I find it hard to not be annoyed at some of the comments coming from the Flames. Just admit you want to maximize profits – I wouldn't fault anybody for saying that. But to phrase it like we should be thankful to pay for the stadium, and our players will magically get better if there's more luxury boxes has rubbed me the wrong way.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Backlunds_socks

Maybe because we, the people, feel they are trying to take money, we contributed, for private, for profit, enterprise?

I think you're proving my point.

The need to to invoke "we the people" and "trying to take my money" is pretty much what I'm getting at.

[fotiou22]

It blows my mind how many fans in this city still read Eric Francis. He should be leading the charge for accountability. Murray Edwards, Ken King, Gary Bettman, at al have treated their most loyal customers like dirt.

For anybody still reading Francis, The National Post has a nice summary (and use of the phrase "arena ####s"): http://nationalpost.com/opinion/jen-...#comments-area )

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by calf

That really does sound exactly like what Ken King is saying.

Sure, absolutely, and I do agree with him.
If the municipalities and Provinces of Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Ontario are kicking in cash for new CFL / NHL rinks, then why not for us?

[Cowboy89]

A few thoughts:

Envitro is spot on. As seasons ticket holders we used to get more special discounts or just plain free merch, pre-sale codes on concerts, free hitmen tickets, etc. Now we basically get a free lunch once a year, some cardboard art print every year and a chance to go to a Stamps game for $30 a ticket (instead of the regular price of $38.50)when that same ticket under the previous Stamps ownership group cost a full price of $20.

I get it they are trying to maximize revenue, but its become clear to me that in the post-2010 era the attitude of the sales department has moved on from trying to build goodwill towards nickel and diming their best customers. That works fine when demand exceeds supply, which was the case from 2004- 2015 playoffs, but I think that attitude will bite them in the behind when they need to work to put butts in the seats again.

Also I would like to point out that all the things that everyone complains about has occurred in correlation with Murray Edwards increased ownership position and involvement with the Flames and NHL. Ken King's the same guy everyone knew and loved from 2000-2010, he just now has a boss who's scope creep now makes decisions he used to make (Anyone who has worked in an Edwards owned/controlled outfit can probably attest to this management style.)

As someone who has a passion for hockey and the Flames this is all difficult to take. I think the best outcome for a fan would be to see Edwards take the message sent by the electorate in this civic election and sell his stake and GTFO. Let a new ownership group composition try to take a stab at negotiating with the city who can actually grasp that any deal that hoses the city also hoses their best customers and work from there.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think you're proving my point.

The need to to invoke "we the people" and "trying to take my money" is pretty much what I'm getting at.

Proving your point?

What point is that? That anyone more critical of CSEC's tactics is overly emotional?

I didn't realize that in addition to running this forum you were also the final arbiter on deciding which issues and arguments have merit.



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Aleks]

Originally Posted by Envitro

So I've been more and more disillusioned as a STH over the last 4-5 years. Nothing to do with the on-ice performance, rather more with how we're treated as an STH.

I hate to be the guy that says "Oh well, team X does this for their STH, and we get nothing", but in reality we get treated with a pretty good level of indifference by the organization compared to pretty much every other STH group in the league. We're taken for granted.

The countless numbers of stories that I hear from other STH's in other markets is mind-numbing. From exclusive events, to let's call them "Oiler Bucks", to actually valuable STH gifts, free jerseys with lettering credits, to everything in between.

We used to treated get well, and somewhere after the '04 run and 2010 the actual value of being a STH has been decreasing more and more.

I just keep getting sick and tired of hearing all of these things that other STH group get around the league (and I travel a lot to other barns, talk to their STH's). I know what that sounds like, but damn it if everyone else is getting treated at a certain level then why can't we?

The Flames' answer is always, "well we can increase the price of your tickets then to pay for that stuff". While a fair statement, why can't they find a way to show us some love for standing by the team through thick and thin without gouging us some more?

I really don't care for the annual Johnny/Monny art print and the 1 STH session at the 'Dome every year. It's nice to hear from the brass but make us feel a bit more appreciated.


/rant

I had this exact talk with KK once, got a nice private meeting before a game after sending an email. Gave him the same sentiment from travelling around and seeing other places and other teams and the "fan support" I call it. Its unreal seeing it other places. I said the same thing, I don't need handouts, but all the fans and STH's see is year over year increases in STH costs, increases in concessions and beverages, and absolutely ZERO increase in value on the overall product or experience for those increases.

He was smug enough to tell me "well if you can't afford the tickets, there are other options for cheaper seats", which rubs me the wrong way. It was never an issue of affording them, it was getting value for the cost, and thats the attitude they have. The whole, if you won't buy them, someone else will, thanks for your time.

I'm likely done after this year, I waffled on it this summer, and opted to stick it for one more. I can watch every game now in any place I want, not wait 20 minutes to take a leak and try to buy a $10.25 beer and not make it to the seat before the faceoff. The experience value for my $$ just isn't there for how much we spend on tickets and on game nights. I might feel different if I had blacks or something, but whites are hard to justify at the moment

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Proving your point?

What point is that? That anyone more critical of CSEC's tactics is overly emotional?

I didn't realize that in addition to running this forum you were also the final arbiter on deciding which issues and arguments have merit.



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

You just proved his point again

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Proving your point?

What point is that? That anyone more critical of CSEC's tactics is overly emotional?

I didn't realize that in addition to running this forum you were also the final arbiter on deciding which issues and arguments have merit.



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

The point is that "we the people" and "taking my money" is emotional, knee-jerk-inducing language. A while ago I asked, and no one answered, what the net effect of the Flames' proposal (which I agree was aggressive) would be on an average ratepayer. Because some people are acting like they are personally being asked to shell out thousands.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Aleks

I had this exact talk with KK once, got a nice private meeting before a game after sending an email. Gave him the same sentiment from travelling around and seeing other places and other teams and the "fan support" I call it. Its unreal seeing it other places. I said the same thing, I don't need handouts, but all the fans and STH's see is year over year increases in STH costs, increases in concessions and beverages, and absolutely ZERO increase in value on the overall product or experience for those increases.

He was smug enough to tell me "well if you can't afford the tickets, there are other options for cheaper seats", which rubs me the wrong way. It was never an issue of affording them, it was getting value for the cost, and thats the attitude they have. The whole, if you won't buy them, someone else will, thanks for your time.

I'm likely done after this year, I waffled on it this summer, and opted to stick it for one more. I can watch every game now in any place I want, not wait 20 minutes to take a leak and try to buy a $10.25 beer and not make it to the seat before the faceoff. The experience value for my $$ just isn't there for how much we spend on tickets and on game nights. I might feel different if I had blacks or something, but whites are hard to justify at the moment

Fair he shouldn't have "positioned" it to you that way, but he's not wrong. Why should the Flames (or any business) throw a whole bunch of extra's that eat away at profits at their customers, when their customers aren't demanding that to sell tickets? Some markets need to all that stuff to draw fans and drive revenue, to date the Flames have not.

What he should have said is if you don't feel the value is there, we have other options, not the "if you can't afford it" message which would be annoying. But what other markets need to do to fill their buildings, not particularily relevant, and right now the market in Calgary tells the Flames they are doing just fine given the attendance and season ticket renewal numbers. Maybe that's about to change and the Flames will need to course correct, but until then, why would they add to the package?

[nik-]

"We the people" may be over the top, but "taking my money" is perfectly accurate.

What else should it be called? It's a massive tax handout where we'd have no option to refuse.

[Dan403]

Originally Posted by flamesforcup

Yes it has. I will be watching games but not contributing financially to the Flames for the time being. Maybe thats just me cause i hate slimy corporations.

Originally Posted by stone hands

I'm really strongly considering cancelling due to the arena debacle. I am fairly certain that barring a long playoff run that this will be my last year contributing financially to the csec

Don't let the door hit you on the @$$ on the way out.

[Aleks]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Fair he shouldn't have "positioned" it to you that way, but he's not wrong. Why should the Flames (or any business) throw a whole bunch of extra's that eat away at profits at their customers, when their customers aren't demanding that to sell tickets? Some markets need to all that stuff to draw fans and drive revenue, to date the Flames have not.

What he should have said is if you don't feel the value is there, we have other options, not the "if you can't afford it" message which would be annoying. But what other markets need to do to fill their buildings, not particularily relevant, and right now the market in Calgary tells the Flames they are doing just fine given the attendance and season ticket renewal numbers. Maybe that's about to change and the Flames will need to course correct, but until then, why would they add to the package?

Fair point

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Fair he shouldn't have "positioned" it to you that way, but he's not wrong. Why should the Flames (or any business) throw a whole bunch of extra's that eat away at profits at their customers, when their customers aren't demanding that to sell tickets? Some markets need to all that stuff to draw fans and drive revenue, to date the Flames have not.

What he should have said is if you don't feel the value is there, we have other options, not the "if you can't afford it" message which would be annoying. But what other markets need to do to fill their buildings, not particularily relevant, and right now the market in Calgary tells the Flames they are doing just fine given the attendance and season ticket renewal numbers. Maybe that's about to change and the Flames will need to course correct, but until then, why would they add to the package?

I get the point that you're trying to make, but the argument falls down when you start talking about Edmonton. Not exactly a place where you "need" to do any of this to sell tickets. Yet, they still do all of those things.

I have plenty of Oiler STH friends and they get way more for their $$ than we do. I know, the ####ty team argument is always made too, but can't say that with the McJesus and Draisaitl contracts. They're a cap team too and have been for a while.