2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Burns, the reigning Norris Trophy winner isn't as good as Josi? I'm guessing there's a large group of people who are much more qualified to assess these players disagree with you on that.

Does Burns have a better shot? Absolutely, one of the best and most accurate blasts in the NHL. He also hits harder than Josi. Roman Josi is better in every other aspect of the game though. He has better reads than Burns in both zones, much better stick checking, skating, and just a higher hockey IQ. The Norris trophy is awarded to the top offensive D man usually, not the best D man.

[Poe969]

I'm guessing Sakic is going to be asking for a lot until Duchene ends up sitting out and then he'll have to take the best offer available and it won't be nearly as good.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Does Burns have a better shot? Absolutely, one of the best and most accurate blasts in the NHL. He also hits harder than Josi. Roman Josi is better in every other aspect of the game though. He has better reads than Burns in both zones, much better stick checking, skating, and just a higher hockey IQ. The Norris trophy is awarded to the top offensive D man usually, not the best D man.

"defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position".

You're telling me that those who voted didn't know what they were doing when they voted for Burns over Josi?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

"defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position".

You're telling me that those who voted didn't know what they were doing when they voted for Burns over Josi?

I think he’s telling you the truth, which is despite what the description of the award says, it almost always goes to players who top the league offensively. Ever watched Burns play? Great offensively. Not so much defensively.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I think he’s telling you the truth, which is despite what the description of the award says, it almost always goes to players who top the league offensively. Ever watched Burns play? Great offensively. Not so much defensively.

The Norris is a weird award - people seem to want some magical combination of Erik Karlsson's offense and Vlasic's defense.

Is Burns the best defensive player in the league? No. Do you feel bad putting him out in the last minute protecting a lead. Of course not. Brent Burns is not a poor defensive player.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I think he’s telling you the truth, which is despite what the description of the award says, it almost always goes to players who top the league offensively. Ever watched Burns play? Great offensively. Not so much defensively.

Lol.. yes I've been watching burns since day one. Thanks.

Show me some objective related info here other than subjective opinion.

I have a ton of respect for a lot of posters on CP in terms of their hockey knowledge, but when the actual people in the know who are hired by the league or a trusted associate, their opinion carries much more weight than you saying " I think he's telling you the truth and finishing with a slight on my hockey knowledge.

I think that reflects more on you than it does me.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

I have a ton of respect for a lot of posters on CP in terms of their hockey knowledge, but when the actual people in the know who are hired by the league or a trusted associate, their opinion carries much more weight than you saying " I think he's telling you the truth and finishing with a slight on my hockey knowledge.

That's nice.

But the Norris Trophy is awarded by the Professional Hockey Writers' Association, not by anyone ‘hired by the league or a trusted associate’. And it has a long history of being given out to the defenceman who has the greatest name recognition out of those with fancy offensive numbers.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Lol.. yes I've been watching burns since day one. Thanks.

Show me some objective related info here other than subjective opinion.

I have a ton of respect for a lot of posters on CP in terms of their hockey knowledge, but when the actual people in the know who are hired by the league or a trusted associate, their opinion carries much more weight than you saying " I think he's telling you the truth and finishing with a slight on my hockey knowledge.

I think that reflects more on you than it does me.

It’s not a slight on your hockey knowledge, it’s an honest question. If you’ve been watching Burns since he was converted to defence all those years ago, then you’ve clearly seen him develop into how he is now, which is good defensively but stellar offensively. Can he control the game in his own zone? No, but from the rush onward he’s one of the very best.

The reason the appeal to authority is kind of dumb here is because you’re not looking at the bigger picture. Offensive ability is more valued in the voting for the Norris because it’s more obvious and covers more mistakes. Burns can be less defensively skilled than Josi (which he is) but he puts up 30 more points than Josi. If you want to make a case that scoring is the most important defensive stat, that’s fine and I think is a case that could be made, but if you’re looking at the role of a defenceman, Josi is better. Burns just scored enough to make the defensive difference between the two less important to a lot of people.

I think the big difference is that with Josi you can put him with anyone and he can cover their deficiencies. With Burns, he needs a partner that can cover his mistakes so that he can play the offensive game he’s good at.

In the end, I think it’s two different discussions. Burns is the better player. Josi is the better defenceman. If you just want the best player you take Burns, if you need the better defenceman, you take Josi.

[Machiavelli]

I would take the best player overall, every time

[Poe969]

you won't have the chance to, it's just a matter of time until the best players all sign with the oilers lol.

Either way you look at it, Sakic isn't getting a top tier defenseman for Duchene. He won't get Burns or Josi. He's going to end up getting Kulak and a gift card from BP and that's it!

[The Cobra]

In any event, we are really looking at the trade value of these d-men, not who is actually better today.

Josi is in the top 5 of NHL d-men based on trade value.

Even if Duncan Keith is currently better (he likely isn't), he has less trade value than Josi. Burns has less trade value too, due to his contract and age.

[GranteedEV]

I think Burns is better than Josi.

Not because he's great defensively, but because I think Josi isn't special defensively either and turns the puck over way in his own zone more than people are willing to recognize. Both are offensive defensemen and Burns is better at that.

I would take quite a few defensemen before Josi:
Hedman (best Dman in NHL)
Karlsson
Doughty
Subban
Pietrangelo
Keith
Brodie (when he's not playing like last year, which I contend was an outlier)
Giordano(when he's playing with an offensive green light. He kind of restrains himself playing with Dougie which is acceptable as together they are the top D pair in NHL)
Burns
OEL
Lindholm
Slavin

And after those guys I would consider Klingberg before Josi though it's a coin-flip that probably goes to Josi only because Klingberg played soft the last time I watched him.

[Machiavelli]

^ I don't know about Klingberg or OEL, but I agree about the rest

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think Burns is better than Josi.

Not because he's great defensively, but because I think Josi isn't special defensively either and turns the puck over way in his own zone more than people are willing to recognize. Both are offensive defensemen and Burns is better at that.

I would take quite a few defensemen before Josi:
Hedman (best Dman in NHL)
Karlsson
Doughty
Subban
Pietrangelo
Keith
Brodie (when he's not playing like last year, which I contend was an outlier)
Giordano(when he's playing with an offensive green light. He kind of restrains himself playing with Dougie which is acceptable as together they are the top D pair in NHL)
Burns
OEL
Lindholm
Slavin

And after those guys I would consider Klingberg before Josi though it's a coin-flip that probably goes to Josi only because Klingberg played soft the last time I watched him.

That's nuts to me. Josi is the anchor on the Preds back end. Listen to top players around the league, Josi is one of the most annoying defenceman to play against because of his solid gap control and strong skating. I believe Scheifele was the guy quoted at saying this. There's a reason Josi averages 2-3 minutes more per game than Subban...he's that good.

OEL/Lindholm/Slavin/Brodie/Subban are all a notch below Josi, IMO. Hedman, Doughty, and Karlsson are the only ones I'd put above him, and it's awfully close.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

That's nuts to me. Josi is the anchor on the Preds back end. Listen to top players around the league, Josi is one of the most annoying defenceman to play against because of his solid gap control and strong skating. I believe Scheifele was the guy quoted at saying this. There's a reason Josi averages 2-3 minutes more per game than Subban...he's that good.

OEL/Lindholm/Slavin/Brodie/Subban are all a notch below Josi, IMO. Hedman, Doughty, and Karlsson are the only ones I'd put above him, and it's awfully close.

False


And, oops...this has become the Josi thread

[ThePrince]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think Burns is better than Josi.

Not because he's great defensively, but because I think Josi isn't special defensively either and turns the puck over way in his own zone more than people are willing to recognize. Both are offensive defensemen and Burns is better at that.

I would take quite a few defensemen before Josi:
Hedman (best Dman in NHL)
Karlsson
Doughty
Subban
Pietrangelo
Keith
Brodie (when he's not playing like last year, which I contend was an outlier)
Giordano(when he's playing with an offensive green light. He kind of restrains himself playing with Dougie which is acceptable as together they are the top D pair in NHL)
Burns
OEL
Lindholm
Slavin

And after those guys I would consider Klingberg before Josi though it's a coin-flip that probably goes to Josi only because Klingberg played soft the last time I watched him.

I want some of what you're smoking. Must be real good stuff

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

False


And, oops...this has become the Josi thread

I stand corrected this year, so far Subban is higher.

Last year, Josi was nearly 1 min higher, so not quite 2-3 min but still demonstrates who the Preds viewed as their #1, in their most successful season as a franchise.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

I stand corrected this year, so far Subban is higher.

Last year, Josi was nearly 1 min higher, so not quite 2-3 min but still demonstrates who the Preds viewed as their #1, in their most successful season as a franchise.

I wouldn't bank on "1 min higher" demonstrating anything other than statistical noise.

[Sandman]

Put me in the Josi camp. He is the best two-way defenseman in the league, a real treat to watch, fantastic in the playoffs. He's almost like a poor mans Lidstrom-smooth and solid everywhere on the ice.

[united]

If Josi is such a good defenseman, why did his own coach, Peter Laviolette, line match the Subban-Ekholm pairing against the Toews, Tarasenko, Getzlaf, and Crosby lines in the playoffs?

Josi has quickly gone from the most underrated defenseman in the league to now possibly overrated. He does, however, have the best contract among defensemen. I'm not saying he isn't a great defenseman, but top 5 is a massive stretch.