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View Poll Results: Do you feel not using public funds is worth the Flames moving?
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Old 07-22-2017, 12:11 PM   #3101
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Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
It's not a question of whether it's affordable, it's a question of whether people would be willing to commit to 30 years of being a captive audience.

Let's say you buy your licence and then they raise ticket prices 7 or 8% for 5 years in a row. You're in for a $20,000 membership (or whatever it is), so how do you feel about cancelling your seats if you're unhappy with the product or the pricing?

I would be against it for that reason. As a STH, you're a customer of the product the team is offering. If you own the membership, you're no longer a customer, you're committed.

At a golf course, or other places where there is a membership, you have a voice in how things are managed. With a sports franchise, you would just be a captive cheque book.
How is it more of a captive audience than today? Would you say NFL fans are captive because they pay a PSL? Once you pay it, it doesn't matter whether you renew your tickets or not. You get the money back in 30 years or when you sell it.

As a consumer I'm not a fan, simply because it raises the cost of season tickets and indirectly, single game tickets. And in the Warriors version, they are trying to take away your potential upside.
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:58 PM   #3102
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I'm a STH, and I would be fine with PSL if and only if they are transferable with a potential profit, and there is a max imum annual price increase in the contract. I'm not going to write them a 10k+ cheque without assurances I'm not going to get screwed later.

If they made them refundable that would be OK too I guess.
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Old 07-22-2017, 11:00 PM   #3103
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I would do a PSL if I get rights for all other events i.e. Concerts etc. I think there is an iconic club in the dome that you gets all events?
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Old 07-23-2017, 09:36 AM   #3104
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I'm a STH, and I would be fine with PSL if and only if they are transferable with a potential profit, and there is a max imum annual price increase in the contract. I'm not going to write them a 10k+ cheque without assurances I'm not going to get screwed later.

If they made them refundable that would be OK too I guess.
Why in the world would a franchise go the PSL route and then take away the one thing that PSL's offer them in financial security, year to year?

"Oh good, we've started our rebuild and we get to start by handing back $75,000,000 to 5k PSL owners, plus lose their annual season ticket revenue each year."

So yeah, I guess that would be okay...for you.
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:26 PM   #3105
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I'm a STH, and I would be fine with PSL if and only if they are transferable with a potential profit, and there is a max imum annual price increase in the contract. I'm not going to write them a 10k+ cheque without assurances I'm not going to get screwed later.

If they made them refundable that would be OK too I guess.
But let's say they did the warriors model for a new arena.
would you pay if you didn't get to make a profit and all you'd get back if you sold ( or in 30 years) was your original investment for the license?

I think most people would complain, but still pay.
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:34 PM   #3106
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But let's say they did the warriors model for a new arena.
would you pay if you didn't get to make a profit and all you'd get back if you sold ( or in 30 years) was your original investment for the license?

I think most people would complain, but still pay.
I haven't looked but I bet history proves over and over that PSLs depreciate over time.
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Old 07-23-2017, 10:58 PM   #3107
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I haven't looked but I bet history proves over and over that PSLs depreciate over time.
The refund year would probably be the most valuable year if there was any fluctuation in value.
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:34 AM   #3108
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I would do a PSL if I get rights for all other events i.e. Concerts etc. I think there is an iconic club in the dome that you gets all events?
that wouldn't work. if there is 14,000+ season ticket holders with concert priority plus the tickets set aside for the promoters and artist, there wouldn't many available for the general public.

the PSL wouldn't really be a license as in the warriors scenario. just a 30 year interest free loan to the team.
would you be cool with that assuming no other benefits?

would be pretty smart of the flames to do it in that way. especially if you say no, you don't get the tickets.
the fan base it large enough I think it would work, even if it did turn off a few people.
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:27 PM   #3109
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But let's say they did the warriors model for a new arena.
would you pay if you didn't get to make a profit and all you'd get back if you sold ( or in 30 years) was your original investment for the license?

I think most people would complain, but still pay.
I think I would complain and then not pay. It might work for Golden State, given their recent success and the huge, wealthy market they are situated in. I don't see Calgary in the same light.

Bill Simmons had a recent podcast with Nathan Hubbard, CEO of Ticketmaster. They mentioned the GSW plan and also wondered out loud how this would work for most teams. In fact, they were doubting how season tickets will work long term, as there are so many entertainment options nowadays, and the value isn't always there for those many mid-week games against meh opponents. The big advantage for season ticket holders is the right to playoff tickets (which is still true, but expensive). The secondary market is changing, so selling those crappy games on the secondary market means selling at a loss, most likely. As a season ticket holder (who shares with 3 others), I would almost certainly not take part in any seat licensing scheme.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:08 PM   #3110
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I think I would complain and then not pay. It might work for Golden State, given their recent success and the huge, wealthy market they are situated in. I don't see Calgary in the same light.

Bill Simmons had a recent podcast with Nathan Hubbard, CEO of Ticketmaster. They mentioned the GSW plan and also wondered out loud how this would work for most teams. In fact, they were doubting how season tickets will work long term, as there are so many entertainment options nowadays, and the value isn't always there for those many mid-week games against meh opponents. The big advantage for season ticket holders is the right to playoff tickets (which is still true, but expensive). The secondary market is changing, so selling those crappy games on the secondary market means selling at a loss, most likely. As a season ticket holder (who shares with 3 others), I would almost certainly not take part in any seat licensing scheme.
If the flames said to people that they'd be selling 14,000 season tickets in a new arena and each seat will be charged a $5000 PSL fee, wouldn't that be a nice 70 million towards the new rink? If it was a 20 year term, you'd really only be paying about $250 a year for that PSL and be getting your money back at the end of that time.

it's a pretty good idea and I think people could justify $250 a year to themselves.
people would pay that. the only thing that would bug people would be any rule against selling them for a profit, and the fact they wouldn't get any interest paid, either.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:13 PM   #3111
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Originally Posted by GordonBlue View Post
If the flames said to people that they'd be selling 14,000 season tickets in a new arena and each seat will be charged a $5000 PSL fee, wouldn't that be a nice 70 million towards the new rink? If it was a 20 year term, you'd really only be paying about $250 a year for that PSL and be getting your money back at the end of that time.

it's a pretty good idea and I think people could justify $250 a year to themselves.
people would pay that. the only thing that would bug people would be any rule against selling them for a profit, and the fact they wouldn't get any interest paid, either.
Maybe at $5000 a PSL. My thinking was it would be more like $30-$50k.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:14 PM   #3112
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$5000 PSL? That's hilarious.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:15 PM   #3113
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Originally Posted by GordonBlue View Post
If the flames said to people that they'd be selling 14,000 season tickets in a new arena and each seat will be charged a $5000 PSL fee, wouldn't that be a nice 70 million towards the new rink? If it was a 20 year term, you'd really only be paying about $250 a year for that PSL and be getting your money back at the end of that time.

it's a pretty good idea and I think people could justify $250 a year to themselves.
people would pay that. the only thing that would bug people would be any rule against selling them for a profit, and the fact they wouldn't get any interest paid, either.
I feel like I'm missing something. What's the point of a PSL if all it gets you is your seats on an annual basis, with no ability to sell at a profit? How is that any better than just regular season tickets for the fans?

Or you're just thinking they do it and the fans will pay because they have no other choice? You're basically advocating for just adding a one time $5k fee to season ticket holders, not an actual PSL and all that comes with it.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:19 PM   #3114
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Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug View Post
I think I would complain and then not pay. It might work for Golden State, given their recent success and the huge, wealthy market they are situated in. I don't see Calgary in the same light.

Bill Simmons had a recent podcast with Nathan Hubbard, CEO of Ticketmaster. They mentioned the GSW plan and also wondered out loud how this would work for most teams. In fact, they were doubting how season tickets will work long term, as there are so many entertainment options nowadays, and the value isn't always there for those many mid-week games against meh opponents. The big advantage for season ticket holders is the right to playoff tickets (which is still true, but expensive). The secondary market is changing, so selling those crappy games on the secondary market means selling at a loss, most likely. As a season ticket holder (who shares with 3 others), I would almost certainly not take part in any seat licensing scheme.
Golden State is a small market team and was way below league averages in terms of profit/revenue and fan interest for 25 years until 2015
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:19 PM   #3115
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that wouldn't work. if there is 14,000+ season ticket holders with concert priority plus the tickets set aside for the promoters and artist, there wouldn't many available for the general public.

the PSL wouldn't really be a license as in the warriors scenario. just a 30 year interest free loan to the team.
would you be cool with that assuming no other benefits?

would be pretty smart of the flames to do it in that way. especially if you say no, you don't get the tickets.
the fan base it large enough I think it would work, even if it did turn off a few people.
It actually does work and it is a thing, it's not all 14000 season tickets. I don't know if it's still called the avison young club, but it's basically all the club seats in the Dome that you see in the lower bowl.

They get rights to all events, including concerts at the Dome. They don't have to take everything and often don't, but they'll get first right of refusal to everything. That's why you often see those club seats come up for sale closer to a concert as they were reserved for a limited time.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:27 PM   #3116
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Golden State is a small market team and was way below league averages in terms of profit/revenue and fan interest for 25 years until 2015
The Bay area is one of the largest markets in North America, they just sucked so no one bothered.

It's in Oakland, but that would be like saying the Canucks are a small market NHL team compared to Calgary because the City of Vancouver has half the population as the City of Calgary.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:38 PM   #3117
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The Bay area is one of the largest markets in North America, they just sucked so no one bothered.

It's in Oakland, but that would be like saying the Canucks are a small market NHL team compared to Calgary because the City of Vancouver has half the population as the City of Calgary.
And they are moving away from Oakland, to the Mission area of San Francisco.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:55 PM   #3118
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And they are moving away from Oakland, to the Mission area of San Francisco.
Yup - Mission Bay, fairly close to AT&T Park. It's an East Village type major redevelopment area.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:55 PM   #3119
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I feel like I'm missing something. What's the point of a PSL if all it gets you is your seats on an annual basis, with no ability to sell at a profit? How is that any better than just regular season tickets for the fans?

Or you're just thinking they do it and the fans will pay because they have no other choice? You're basically advocating for just adding a one time $5k fee to season ticket holders, not an actual PSL and all that comes with it.
it's a take on what the GSW appears to be doing. it's basically a no interest, long term loan the team takes from the fans under the guise of a PSL to pay for the arena.

I just thought it was something that could work in Canada with rabid hockey fans and a team with a waiting list. easy way for a team to raise some of the money they would have to commit.

so yeah. I was thinking the team could do it and the fans would suck it up and pay because they have no choice. ( I don't think they should, but that they could do it and get away with it)
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Old 07-24-2017, 04:04 PM   #3120
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it's a take on what the GSW appears to be doing. it's basically a no interest, long term loan the team takes from the fans under the guise of a PSL to pay for the arena.

I just thought it was something that could work in Canada with rabid hockey fans and a team with a waiting list. easy way for a team to raise some of the money they would have to commit.

so yeah. I was thinking the team could do it and the fans would suck it up and pay because they have no choice. ( I don't think they should, but that they could do it and get away with it)
I'm much more skeptical of the Calgary hockey market, especially as our city looks to be heading to a new economic reality rather than a two to three year recession.

Ticket sales have cooled immensely over the past few years despite some exciting hockey and making the playoffs twice. The Flames have sucked literally as much money as they could out of this city for years (nothing wrong with that) and it's starting to show with many nights having thousands of unsold seats and upwards of 5k actual empty seats.

Beware the writing on the wall with this city's ability to support the Flames at the level to which this organization has grown accustomed to. The warning signs are there, and without a major rebound in oil the expected excitement to jump into a new building at much higher cost isn't going to be there in this city like it was in Edmonton. (They had perfect timing with McDavid).

And certainly beware the mostly mythical wait list. There's a waitlist for specific seats and sections, there's no waitlist to get season tickets in the building. They wisely sell the former as the latter.

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