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View Poll Results: Do you feel not using public funds is worth the Flames moving?
Yes 180 32.26%
No 378 67.74%
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:45 PM   #2301
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Just to argue devil's advocate: Nenshi isn't taking the Flames seriously either, so if this is our baseline for "bush-league negotiating", then the mayor is just as guilty. Also, Nenshi is one vote on council. He's the most important member of council, of course, but he can't dictate terms by himself.

That said, I think everyone knows the Flames aren't getting the 'Edmonton deal', and nor should they. But from the team's perspective, if they get 50% of the Edmonton deal rather than perhaps 20%, it's still a big win, and why they are trying to negotiate from such a stance.
This is my view too.

I don't like the way Ken King has fronted things, but I also don't like the way Nenshie has beaked through this whole thing.

If I just stop asking for something that the other side in a business negotiation said I would never get I would have been a pretty weak negotiator. Keeping at a goal post is the best way to get the other side to move and get into a this for that situation.

These guys didn't find the capital to own sports teams but just taking the stance of a bloviating mayor at face value.
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Old 05-13-2017, 02:10 PM   #2302
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I have to laugh at the idea of Nenshi and The Flames being on equal footing here.

Nenshi represents the interests of the citizens of Calgary. It's not his job to come up with alternate solutions to hamfisted proposals, and yet the city of Calgary has funded studies, proposed alternate locations and conducted public opinion polling on the project.

They've green lit exploration of an olympic bid that would almost certainly tie into arena funding, have been meeting with the Flames weekly apparently, and all of this in an election year where the discussion of public money for private interest is a political hand grenade.

Nenshi and council have probably done more, and spent more, than they should have on the various arena proposals.

Is the idea that Nenshi should be 'nicer' to the Flames, who are indirectly threatening to leave the city? Is that how negotiations usually go in business? Not in my experience.
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Old 05-13-2017, 02:52 PM   #2303
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man you guys are a cranky lot, of course the Flames and King are going to suggest the business model from Edmonton, they'd be idiots not to.
I wasn't asking what King and the owners would suggest. I was asking about the questions Calgary media should be asking.

There have been fully privately funded arenas built in other cities in Canada and the U.S. Wouldn't a fairly straightforward and not even combative question for King be "The owners have the money to build this thing privately. Why do you need any public money to fund this arena? " King may well have figures about population and arena income to back up his argument. But it's a perfectly legitimate - and obvious - question to ask.
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Old 05-13-2017, 03:11 PM   #2304
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Nobody, especially the average citizen can determine the economic impact of the stadium after ~8 months. Maybe we should wait a bit longer before declaring all those professors and studies wrong?
As opposed to the people that argued it had none, even before it was built?

Also, why can't they? Would you argue that the revitalized area is a figment of peoples' imaginations? At what point can it be considered impactful?
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Old 05-13-2017, 03:37 PM   #2305
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The threat of Edmonton moving was way more real than any threat the Flames make. So the leverage situations are not comparable at all. Edmonton is a step or two above Winnipeg as a market. Calgary is a step or two below Toronto as a market. And yeah it's because corporate money matters, especially since the primary goal of Flames ownership, by far, is to sell more luxury boxes and increase the lower bowl and charge more for tickets there too. Calgary is probably the only market in Canada besides Toronto that could actually do PSLs and actually sell most if not all of them.
I agree with your overall premise, Clay, in terms of corporate money being important and being more available in Calgary (although now that Rogers place is built not by much). That being said. I wouldn't put Calgary and Edmonton quite as far apart as you suggest. I also think it's somewhat disengenous to suggest Calgary has more leverage than Edmonton.
From Forbes: http://imgur.com/a/hV0YB

Calgary is in my opinion every bit as likely to move as Edmonton was or you could look it the other way niether team was ever going to move given the rather good support bases where they were and the unpredictible nature of moving into foreign untested US markets. Yes, Calgary might have a better corprorate structure and thus more to gain from that money. But Emdontons few rabbid fans make up for the larger base of less avid fans getting company tickets from their companies for free. IN fact I'd say a lot of calgarians would not goto games at all if not for their companies. I'm not sure that our situation here in that sense maes us any better as a fan base! Frankly it's not something I'd be too fond of. I'd rather have Edmontons situation than Calgary's as a fan. Die hard loyal fans are hard to beat. I think the main difference and I think this is what you were getting at Clay is the Calgary has a wider population to suppor the Flames. Where as Edmonton has a smaller tighter more lloyal support base. however the corproate support is growing in emdonton I wouldn't underestimate now that Oils have made the playoffs how much of an increase they gain with corproate investment. THe thing is they needed the building to help that along more than Calgary does right now that we can agree on.
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:09 PM   #2306
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As opposed to the people that argued it had none, even before it was built?

Also, why can't they? Would you argue that the revitalized area is a figment of peoples' imaginations? At what point can it be considered impactful?
Yeah, and climate change isn't real because winters are cold...

If you are offering other people's opinions on how the arena has transformed Edmonton's downtown, let me add my own anecdotes: it hasn't. A few bars, a new casino, and some office towers? awesome revitalization for 200 million dollars in city money.

Having been to the area before the arena and after, it's lipstick on a pig with a few more fans pissing in the street.

And before you call me out on my personal opinon of the area and how it isn't worth anything, go back and read your own anti-factual posts.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:21 AM   #2307
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I have to laugh at the idea of Nenshi and The Flames being on equal footing here.

Nenshi represents the interests of the citizens of Calgary. It's not his job to come up with alternate solutions to hamfisted proposals, and yet the city of Calgary has funded studies, proposed alternate locations and conducted public opinion polling on the project.

They've green lit exploration of an olympic bid that would almost certainly tie into arena funding, have been meeting with the Flames weekly apparently, and all of this in an election year where the discussion of public money for private interest is a political hand grenade.

Nenshi and council have probably done more, and spent more, than they should have on the various arena proposals.

Is the idea that Nenshi should be 'nicer' to the Flames, who are indirectly threatening to leave the city? Is that how negotiations usually go in business? Not in my experience.
Don't think I ever said equal. If you don't think Nenshi has been political, a grand stander, and wildly inconsistent then fine. Not trying to convince you.

I think they've both been weasels from the get go, but that's just my opinion.

They do need to work together if the city wants a say in adding to a development though. The East Village is the city's vision, they've asked the Flames to look at it, basically taking control of things. The Calgary Next project was the Flames.

If they want an arena over there, of course they are driving the bus.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:54 AM   #2308
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I agree that this project 'isn't Nenshi's problem'. But there is no question that he has been grandstanding and politicking quite a bit.

It would be such a lovely change if everyone could stick to mature and productive discourse. But I have been living on this planet long enough to know better than to hold my breath.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:58 AM   #2309
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Don't think I ever said equal. If you don't think Nenshi has been political, a grand stander, and wildly inconsistent then fine. Not trying to convince you.

I think they've both been weasels from the get go, but that's just my opinion.

They do need to work together if the city wants a say in adding to a development though. The East Village is the city's vision, they've asked the Flames to look at it, basically taking control of things. The Calgary Next project was the Flames.

If they want an arena over there, of course they are driving the bus.
But if the Flames see the writing on the wall (which I certainly hope they have) that this will be the location then they need to get behind the wheel, asap.

It's great the city is driving it for them, but that's not their job, especially when the Flames will be fighting for millions of dollars.
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Old 05-14-2017, 09:11 AM   #2310
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But if the Flames see the writing on the wall (which I certainly hope they have) that this will be the location then they need to get behind the wheel, asap.

It's great the city is driving it for them, but that's not their job, especially when the Flames will be fighting for millions of dollars.
King has been pretty up front of wanting to move quickly so I don't think they will be delaying anything.

But the city has a development plan for the East Village that the Flames have to fit into, so they aren't really calling the shots from what I can see. They have to see where it fits, agree or disagree, and then move on to funding.
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Old 05-14-2017, 09:26 AM   #2311
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King has been pretty up front of wanting to move quickly so I don't think they will be delaying anything.

But the city has a development plan for the East Village that the Flames have to fit into, so they aren't really calling the shots from what I can see. They have to see where it fits, agree or disagree, and then move on to funding.
King only wants to move fast now, and only on the Flames plan. Actions speak louder then words and what is it 8-9 years of talk and all we've seen is plans that look like the kid that forgot to do his presentation and quickly did it on the bus on the way to school. King has been anything but fast, the city has actually moved quite fast since Calgary Next was announced.

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Old 05-14-2017, 09:36 AM   #2312
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King only wants to move fast now, and only on the Flames plan. Actions speak louder then words and what is it 8-9 years of talk and all we've seen is plans that look like the kid that forgot to do his presentation and quickly did it on the bus on the way to school. King has been anything but fast, the city has actually moved quite fast since Calgary Next was announced.

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IMO this is exactly why they went public, because the behind the scenes work wasn't moving. I also think the stand alone arena will go faster considering that is what they worked on ages ago when Maclean first dropped that the new arena announcement was coming. As it has been mentioned, all that was tabled when they acquired the Stampeders.
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Old 05-14-2017, 09:48 AM   #2313
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King has been pretty up front of wanting to move quickly so I don't think they will be delaying anything.

But the city has a development plan for the East Village that the Flames have to fit into, so they aren't really calling the shots from what I can see. They have to see where it fits, agree or disagree, and then move on to funding.
Is that true?

The passive/aggressive moving threats don't feel like being upfront and the timeline has been dictated by the Flames to date, no? It may take the Flames swallowing their pride. Nenshi may be a "showboat and a grandstander" (where have I heard that before) but he does have a broader constituency. The Flames, after all, looking for something that most private businesses never get.

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Old 05-14-2017, 10:14 AM   #2314
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Is that true?

The passive/aggressive moving threats don't feel like being upfront and the timeline has been dictated by the Flames to date, no? It may take the Flames swallowing their pride. Nenshi may be a "showboat and a grandstander" (where have I heard that before) but he does have a broader constituency. The Flames, after all, looking for something that most private businesses never get.
I hate the threatening to move card, it's silly and a clear cut attempt to manipulate the situation.

If you read back I've been against both sides, and not just one for trying to manipulate and grand stand.

Bottom line there have been too many facilities built with public money not to expect the Flames to ask for the same. That's only natural. From there you negotiate to a finish and see where it goes.

If the city sees the addition of a building to East Village as a plus then they will have to do something to make that location more favourable to the Calgary ownership. No public money at all means they go looking for other sites that won't cost as much and the city loses in the end without an anchor facility to jump start a new area.

If they don't see it as necessary to have a building there then hold the line and let the owners by their own land and get to work building something on their own.

But my gut says that's not the case.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:16 AM   #2315
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IMO this is exactly why they went public, because the behind the scenes work wasn't moving. I also think the stand alone arena will go faster considering that is what they worked on ages ago when Maclean first dropped that the new arena announcement was coming. As it has been mentioned, all that was tabled when they acquired the Stampeders.
I disagree with this, I think they announced due to the setiment in Edmonton and was hoping that this would cause Calgarians to want their own arena.

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Old 05-14-2017, 10:36 AM   #2316
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Remember when King said they had been working behind the scenes for years and weren't going to reveal the plans until all the Ts were crossed and the Is dotted?

And then the city had to reveal that they had had zero interaction with the Flames until their half cocked letter of intent that revealed basically no information?

And this is somehow the City's problem? King first made his CalgaryNext announcement nearly two years ago and has been talking about a new arena for a DECADE.

But Nenshi is being wildly inconsistent? He's had one position this whole time: no city of Calgary dollars for a successful and thriving private enterprise. He's held that position for as long as Johnny Gaudreau has been a Flame. If anything, he's been remarkably consistent.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:43 AM   #2317
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King only wants to move fast now, and only on the Flames plan.
Bingo!
No pun intended.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:52 AM   #2318
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Remember when King said they had been working behind the scenes for years and weren't going to reveal the plans until all the Ts were crossed and the Is dotted?

And then the city had to reveal that they had had zero interaction with the Flames until their half cocked letter of intent that revealed basically no information?

And this is somehow the City's problem? King first made his CalgaryNext announcement nearly two years ago and has been talking about a new arena for a DECADE.

But Nenshi is being wildly inconsistent? He's had one position this whole time: no city of Calgary dollars for a successful and thriving private enterprise. He's held that position for as long as Johnny Gaudreau has been a Flame. If anything, he's been remarkably consistent.
His slam on Edmonton was "We aren't going to do it like those guys up north, no public battles and negotiations. When you hear about our plan it'll be ready to be built".
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:28 AM   #2319
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I hate the threatening to move card, it's silly and a clear cut attempt to manipulate the situation.

If you read back I've been against both sides, and not just one for trying to manipulate and grand stand.

Bottom line there have been too many facilities built with public money not to expect the Flames to ask for the same. That's only natural. From there you negotiate to a finish and see where it goes.

If the city sees the addition of a building to East Village as a plus then they will have to do something to make that location more favourable to the Calgary ownership. No public money at all means they go looking for other sites that won't cost as much and the city loses in the end without an anchor facility to jump start a new area.

If they don't see it as necessary to have a building there then hold the line and let the owners by their own land and get to work building something on their own.

But my gut says that's not the case.
This is bang on. I'm just more critical of the Flames posturing than I am of that of the mayor. As you note, the Flames are asking for something. They are doing a very poor job of this IMO.
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:37 AM   #2320
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Along with all that was stated above, King constantly talked about them narrowing down a location from two or three options for years and they put all their bets on the worst option with a lazy, unrealistic proposal.

At this point, I don't know what else King wants from the city. What's your plan and how do you propose funding it? Get to work man!
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