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View Poll Results: Do you feel not using public funds is worth the Flames moving?
Yes 180 32.26%
No 378 67.74%
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:12 PM   #3301
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What actually has the city been doing, other than saying no?
Other than finding a suitable site, starting talks on a land transfer, etc?
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:28 PM   #3302
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Other than finding a suitable site, starting talks on a land transfer, etc?
Oh, they've done etc., have they? Well, I take everything back. Who am I to argue with somebody who provides evidence as specific as etc.?
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:29 PM   #3303
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Oh, they've done etc., have they? Well, I take everything back. Who am I to argue with somebody who provides evidence as specific as etc.?
Are the two very critical things I mentioned not enough?
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:29 PM   #3304
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Is IamNotKenKing astroturfing?

I suppose that may not be the most applicable terminology, but is it an attempt to 'manage' opinion?

Seems to have been the only one talking yesterday about the supposed plan on the table to the city from the Flames, and now appears to be the most active poster in defending the Flames apparently backing away from that plan.

I don't get it.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:32 PM   #3305
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Are the two very critical things I mentioned not enough?
Not hardly. CSEC did not need the City's help or permission to talk to the Stampede board. And they certainly didn't need the City to tell them where the arena has to be built, take it or leave it.

Based on his latest statements, it looks to me awfully like Mr. Nenshi wants a billion-dollar bauble in Victoria Park to be his legacy, and he wants the Flames to pay for a big chunk of it. They get to build it where he wants, when he wants, how he wants, and they also get to pay the entire cost themselves. Now, how could anybody refuse an offer like that?
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:33 PM   #3306
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^^That definitely makes some sense Flash. Would certainly explain a lot.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:36 PM   #3307
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Is IamNotKenKing astroturfing?

I suppose that may not be the most applicable terminology, but is it an attempt to 'manage' opinion?

Seems to have been the only one talking yesterday about the supposed plan on the table to the city from the Flames, and now appears to be the most active poster in defending the Flames apparently backing away from that plan.

I don't get it.
I would hope that astroturfing would be a little more intelligently subtle. Granted, if it's a Flames directive, it would make sense for it to be so hamfisted.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:42 PM   #3308
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Not hardly. CSEC did not need the City's help or permission to talk to the Stampede board. And they certainly didn't need the City to tell them where the arena has to be built, take it or leave it.

Based on his latest statements, it looks to me awfully like Mr. Nenshi wants a billion-dollar bauble in Victoria Park to be his legacy, and he wants the Flames to pay for a big chunk of it. They get to build it where he wants, when he wants, how he wants, and they also get to pay the entire cost themselves. Now, how could anybody refuse an offer like that?
But CSEC didn't do those things. They have not made any serious proposal to date, that the public has knowledge of.

Meanwhile, the city has been preparing plans for exactly what the Flames should want, all the while requesting that CSEC join them in planning.

If the Flames are seriously still stuck on CalgaryNEXT, I don't know what to say. That proposal was dead on the evening it was announced. That project on that site withvthat funding model is 100% impossible to happen, no matter who sits on council.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:50 PM   #3309
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But CSEC didn't do those things. They have not made any serious proposal to date, that the public has knowledge of.
CSEC didn't talk to the Stampede Board? Gee, considering that the Stampede Board is their current landlord, I wonder how they managed not to talk to them.

As for the location in Victoria Park, whether it's suitable or not is a matter of opinion. It may be highly suitable for Mr. Nenshi's proposed legacy playground, but not suitable for a private party to invest $450 million in.

As for the ‘serious proposal’, IAmNotKenKing, who apparently has some sort of inside knowledge, says that just such a proposal has been sitting on the mayor's desk for some time, awaiting a response. I don't know whether that's true, but neither am I prepared to state outright that it is false. Whether the public has knowledge of it is rather beside the point.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:50 PM   #3310
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Iv been a flames gan since the early 80's. Just not happy in general about any of this
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:55 PM   #3311
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And they certainly didn't need the City to tell them where the arena has to be built, take it or leave it.
Their original proposal was using city land, and so is Plan B, so yeah, hey do need the city to tell them where the arena will be built.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:01 PM   #3312
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How does King still have a job?
I know this is uncomfortable to consider, but:

Because he's doing his job and his bosses love him for it.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:05 PM   #3313
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He says that he's for a rink, as long as it provides public benefit, and then says that a rink doesn't provide public benefit if it uses any public dollars.
Show me one time he has ever said that.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:13 PM   #3314
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Their original proposal was using city land, and so is Plan B, so yeah, hey do need the city to tell them where the arena will be built.
Plan B uses land owned by the Stampede Board, which is not the City. If the City is not going to contribute a single dollar, as a number of people here have suggested, there's no good reason why CSEC should not please themselves and buy land where they choose.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:17 PM   #3315
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"I continue to say that, as always, public money must be spent for public benefit and if we can figure out a way that there's public benefit in an interesting project in Victoria Park, we'll take that to the citizens and see what they think."

Literally the first article I googled. If he thought there was public benefit in an arena, he'd be ok using public dollars for it. He's clearly not seeing the public benefit, which is his opinion and it's fine, but why does he bother spewing BS about how he wants an arena?

Both sides are full of it is all I'm saying. Just all ego.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:24 PM   #3316
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Where does he say this: "a rink doesn't provide public benefit if it uses any public dollars"?


This: "if we can figure out a way that there's public benefit in an interesting project in Victoria Park, we'll take that to the citizens and see what they think", is pretty much the opposite of saying he doesn't believe a rink provides any public benefit.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:29 PM   #3317
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I know this is uncomfortable to consider, but:

Because he's doing his job and his bosses love him for it.
He is very literally losing the team money because he's been wasting years that could have already been in a new arena.

I stand by my words that he should have been fired the evening of the CalgaryNEXT proposal. He had years to prepare, and came up with a presentation that could have been prepared by someone competent in a couple hours, and the proposal itself was very clear at the start that it was completely unworkable, simply by doing a little math on the back of a napkin.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:29 PM   #3318
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I think with the news tonight we'll close this one up.
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