Welcome to the big leagues I guess? This is how big boy countries deal with each other. How many times has Canada been screwed over by the US?
It would be even worse nowadays because of the genocide Haiti committed (actual genocide, not the current one-size-fits-all definition).
Just looking at the wiki, most of the debt was cancelled and the US and Britain recognized Haiti and started trading two decades after independence.
Maybe Haitians are responsible for most of Haiti's problems?
The last time Haiti was stable, they asked for reparations from France as a result of the "Double-Debt" that crippled the countries development in addition to the slavery.
They were very mysteriously destabilized shortly after the request.
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I donated after the 2010 earthquake and had friends work there, both on the recovery and medical relief. It sounds like there was a lot of money available, but very little will of the people to do anything. Western companies were offering complete turn-key solutions to rebuild infrastructure, and the locals were like, "No, we don't want that. We'll just slowly mess around and build one small concrete building at a time."
I hate to say it, but it is almost like they need a little imperialism. A larger power needs to take over, make administrative decisions, and get stuff done. They are just not able to govern themselves.
I don't know enough on the subject, but I know people who are from the Dominican Republic that essentially have similar comments that you mentioned about why DR is doing well and Haiti is not.
Welcome to the big leagues I guess? This is how big boy countries deal with each other. How many times has Canada been screwed over by the US?
It would be even worse nowadays because of the genocide Haiti committed (actual genocide, not the current one-size-fits-all definition).
Just looking at the wiki, most of the debt was cancelled and the US and Britain recognized Haiti and started trading two decades after independence.
Maybe Haitians are responsible for most of Haiti's problems?
Do you intentionally try to come across as a dickhead in all your posts?
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Corporal Jean-Marc H. BECHARD, 6 Aug 1993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver
Just ignore me...I'm in a mood today.
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Haiti was punished for centuries for being able to assert there independence. They were burdened with sanctions, paying back costs they couldn't afford, other European colonial nations wouldn't recognize them or trade with them. Seeing Haiti become successful would have set a bad precedence in other slave colonies that hoped to rebel. The unfair reparations payments (or extortion payments) took Haiti 122 years to pay off (or to 1926). By that time, they were broke, starving, and extremely underdeveloped. They completely missed the industrial revolution because they were too poor to participate, and sanctions meant that other countries wouldn't deal with them. Add to that, they country is also prone to violent natural disasters.
The former colonial powers and countries in the Americas, really need to help Haiti to become a prosperous country. If you do that, there will be no need for violence.
An excellent post, thank you for this again even though I already thanked you! It's not often to see acknowledgement/admission of the colonial western powers, what they've done and what they've left in their paths. Usually, it's more blaming of the suffering country and their people (um, sort of like that other post here), and then sometimes suggesting that what they need is for the imperialists to go in and fix them because they can't do it themselves, completely ignoring why they can't.
Related to the situation, and I have no idea, which is why I ask, are there any valuable resource deposits that Haiti is known for or recently known for? Hope not, because that will then usually mean the powers will eventually battle to control it and further destroy the country.
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If I'm going to go to Haiti to overthrow whatever is left of their Government and install myself as Supreme Ruler I'mma need a few bucks.
We can relocate the CP servers there and turn that place into a Paradise!
I have plans! Plans I tell you!
I've got a guy who is all in on Mountain Towns, I know who I'll appoint as 'Air Marshall,' we're going to build a stadium and get an Expansion NHL team...I've got it all planned out!
And we're going to make the International Community pay for it!
__________________ The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
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Man, such a tough problem. Lots of reasons it's happening, but what is the solution now that it's basically a gang war zone?
It seems like the type of thing something like NATO or the UN is actually made for to send a force in and put down the gangs and give the government back to the people. But it comes all sorts of shades of past mistakes and colonial issues that its debatable whether or not that is the right thing to do (also would obviously cause bloodshed while a war happens).
Im genuinely curious about what people think about a solution to stuff like this. Is it just to wait and see hopefully the people eventually gain enough power to revolt and free themselves from gang rule? Is that even plausible without foreign assistance? Does the stank of Cold War US foreign intervention in Central/South America stain any hope at a welcomed or untainted intervention? Has there been any call from the people there for the world to bring an army, or is just send funds?
Man, such a tough problem. Lots of reasons it's happening, but what is the solution now that it's basically a gang war zone?
It seems like the type of thing something like NATO or the UN is actually made for to send a force in and put down the gangs and give the government back to the people. But it comes all sorts of shades of past mistakes and colonial issues that its debatable whether or not that is the right thing to do (also would obviously cause bloodshed while a war happens).
Im genuinely curious about what people think about a solution to stuff like this. Is it just to wait and see hopefully the people eventually gain enough power to revolt and free themselves from gang rule? Is that even plausible without foreign assistance? Does the stank of Cold War US foreign intervention in Central/South America stain any hope at a welcomed or untainted intervention? Has there been any call from the people there for the world to bring an army, or is just send funds?
It is so tough.
This isn't NATO's job or role.
The UN has a long list of failures....
It honestly feels like a hard reset is needed on this country.
It is a sad situation.
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
It honestly feels like a hard reset is needed on this country.
It is a sad situation.
Not necessarily as described, but I don't really look at it much different than protecting shipping lanes and things like that. You can't have gangs just taking over countries, and especially with it being so close to the US and other partners, you'd think at least the US would have interest in stepping in. It's interesting how you could rah rah the US into Korea and into Vietnam etc.. but the same patriotic sentiment couldn't be prodded for a near neighbour like Haiti. Or just that the debacle that were those conflicts (and other Cold War era and colonial issues) has left the US and western partners gun-shy to jump to protect people (Ukraine being an example too). What's the army actually for? Just watching from the sidelines with a bunch of cool stuff?
An excellent post, thank you for this again even though I already thanked you! It's not often to see acknowledgement/admission of the colonial western powers, what they've done and what they've left in their paths. Usually, it's more blaming of the suffering country and their people (um, sort of like that other post here), and then sometimes suggesting that what they need is for the imperialists to go in and fix them because they can't do it themselves, completely ignoring why they can't.
Related to the situation, and I have no idea, which is why I ask, are there any valuable resource deposits that Haiti is known for or recently known for? Hope not, because that will then usually mean the powers will eventually battle to control it and further destroy the country.
The Wester colonial powers and imperialism don't help. I don't disagree with that. As I mentioned I'm not well versed in the subject. The only aspect I know is what people from the DR say about Haiti.
This is what I found when I quickly looked up information relating to the relationship between the two countries. To call it tense is almost an understatement. Honestly speaking, I had no clue until I looked it up just now. Apparently the border between the two countries is being fortified and closed.
Again, I don't know enough. All I'm saying is that for individuals that emigrated from the country that shares the island, many seem kinda disappointed when it comes to the topic of Haiti.
Not necessarily as described, but I don't really look at it much different than protecting shipping lanes and things like that. You can't have gangs just taking over countries, and especially with it being so close to the US and other partners, you'd think at least the US would have interest in stepping in.
Perhaps the US is happy to let a Cuban neighbour burn
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
An excellent post, thank you for this again even though I already thanked you! It's not often to see acknowledgement/admission of the colonial western powers, what they've done and what they've left in their paths. Usually, it's more blaming of the suffering country and their people (um, sort of like that other post here), and then sometimes suggesting that what they need is for the imperialists to go in and fix them because they can't do it themselves, completely ignoring why they can't.
Related to the situation, and I have no idea, which is why I ask, are there any valuable resource deposits that Haiti is known for or recently known for? Hope not, because that will then usually mean the powers will eventually battle to control it and further destroy the country.
No, if Haiti had anything worth exploiting it would be better run, it's lack of anything valuable is why Haiti is falling apart
My ex-gf is half Haitian, so I have some knowledge of their culture and customs (their weddings are FANTASTIC, with tons of dancing where everyone attending lines up automatically, making it feel choreographed but it's not, but I digress lol), but wish I learned a bit more about their history.
As for the situation, many of the countries not part of the west do not trust the west (wonder why?!), so seeing western leaders come in likely wouldn't go over well. Not sure what the best thing to do is here.
The Wester colonial powers and imperialism don't help. I don't disagree with that. As I mentioned I'm not well versed in the subject. The only aspect I know is what people from the DR say about Haiti.
This is what I found when I quickly looked up information relating to the relationship between the two countries. To call it tense is almost an understatement. Honestly speaking, I had no clue until I looked it up just now. Apparently the border between the two countries is being fortified and closed.
Again, I don't know enough. All I'm saying is that for individuals that emigrated from the country that shares the island, many seem kinda disappointed when it comes to the topic of Haiti.
The DR and Haiti have a long history of killing each other. Haiti invaded the DR continuously for decades in the 1800s, and once they did a scorched earth genocide that killed a huge percentage of the population.
Then in the early 1900s Trujilo (dictator of the DR) massacred tens of thousands of Haitians.
The people aren't the same race, don't speak the same language, and the Dominican economy is more than 10x larger per capita. The economic disparity has led to tons of illegal immigration from Haiti, which is unpopular in the DR.
Last edited by bizaro86; 03-13-2024 at 11:02 PM.
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The DR and Haiti have a long history of killing each other. Haiti invaded the DR continuously for decades in the 1800s, and once they did a scorched earth genocide that killed a huge percentage of the population.
Then in the early 1900s Trujilo (dictator of the DR) massacred tens of thousands of Haitians.
The people aren't the same race, don't speak the same language, and the Dominican economy is more than 10x larger per capita. The economic disparity has led to tons of illegal immigration from Haiti, which is unpopular in the DR.
There were essentially at the same economic level in 1960 and then wildly diverged.
