[PGT] Flames beat Detroit 5-2! Down by 2, score 5 straight.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Where ru Chris O'Sullivan

One could also suggest he hasn't survived anything as this is the first season other C's have been on the roster to push him. Next year will be his first real challenge.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Horvat is going to be a good player, but that argument is based largely on hope more than anything. Neither his regular stats nor his fancystats argue that he is close right now.

Horvat is also a lot younger than Monahan, and his rookie season is probably more legitimately comparable to Monahan's from last year. And yet, even then, the comparisons are not really that close.

I agree. He's a good player, but Monahan is beginning to look like he will be a top NHL centre before he turns 22-years-old.

[Obsidian]

By the way, it appears the Pens chose to save MAF for the Kings tonight, who apparently shut them out last time they faced.

Am kind of loving the Pens for that move.

[Obsidian]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Horvat is also a lot younger than Monahan, and his rookie season is probably more legitimately comparable to Monahan's from last year. And yet, even then, the comparisons are not really that close.

I agree. He's a good player, but Monahan is beginning to look like he will be a top NHL centre before he turns 22-years-old.

Monahan is 20, Horvat is just turning 20, same draft class..

Horvat will probably end up with 10-12 goals this season. Monahan had 22.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Obsidian

Monahan is 20, Horvat is just turning 20, same draft class.

Horvat is eight months younger than Monahan, and will play the bulk of his first NHL season as a nineteen-year old. Monahan played almost his entire rookie season as a 19-year-old.

Originally Posted by Obsidian

Horvat will probably end up with 10-12 goals this season. Monahan had 22.

Uh, yes...

So what?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Horvat is eight months younger than Monahan

Less than 6 (October 12 to April 5).

[Obsidian]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Horvat is eight months younger than Monahan, and will play the bulk of his first NHL season as a nineteen-year old. Monahan played almost his entire rookie season as a 19-year-old.


Uh, yes...

So what?

Part A is not a huge difference, whereas you made it out to be in saying he was "a lot younger"

Part B on the other hand is a pretty significant difference, especially given their respective roles as rookies.

[formulate]

List of NHL centres with more goals this season than 20-year-old Monahan:

Stamkos
Pavelski
Tavares
Seguin

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Obsidian

Part A is not a huge difference, whereas you made it out to be in saying he was "a lot younger"

Part B on the other hand is a pretty significant difference, especially given their respective roles as rookies.

Part A is a pretty substantial difference at that age.
Part B, I also agree is pretty significantly different, but I don't get what that has to do with anything that I was getting at:

Yes. Monahan is a better player than Bo Horvat, and he likely will be over the course of their careers. However, we should expect Horvat to close that gap a little as both players mature.

[Igster]

Am I the only one that think the new Flames logo should be



Teams must hate the Flames. They never, ever go away and just when you think you have them right where you want them and are dominating, boom, you lose. Awesome.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Part A is a pretty substantial difference at that age.
Part B, I also agree is pretty significantly different, but I don't get what that has to do with anything that I was getting at:

Yes. Monahan is a better player than Bo Horvat, and he likely will be over the course of their careers. However, we should expect Horvat to close that gap a little as both players mature.

You seem to come to that conclusion based on the fact that he is 6 months younger.

However, if you look at both of their progression over that last several years, Horvat has not been closing the gap at all. So what reason is there to think that he will in the future?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You seem to come to that conclusion based on the fact that he is 6 months younger.

However, if you look at both of their progression over that last several years, Horvat has not been closing the gap at all. So what reason is there to think that he will in the future?

By my reading—and based precisely on the fact that Horvat has an April birthday and Monahan and October birthday—I would actually say that yes, Horvat has already shown that he could close the gap. He played his last season in the OHL last year as an eighteen-year old, and scored at very nearly the same rate as Monahan when he played his last OHL season, also as an eighteen-year-old.

The argument here is that Horvat will quite likely experience some added growth/improvment to his game once Monahan has hit his developmental peak, based on the fact that he is several months behind developmentally. Of course, this it will also not come as a surprise if this does not happen.

What does this mean? Not much, in the grand scheme of things. I project Monahan to be a first-line centre—he's pretty much almost there already. I project Horvat to likely top out as a second-line centre, and to meet that lofty goal he still has some room to get there. So then, yes, I do expect him to close the gap—by which I mean that at their developmental peaks, Monahan will look not quite as much better than Horvat as he does now. That's all.

[Locke]

Hurry up Gio, the boys are keeping the playoff seat warm for you.

[CgyFlamesftw]

Horvats potential is what Monahan is right now. If you guys remember his downside in junior was feeding off others such as domi. He could never lead the offense on his own. He should of dropped but the Canucks took him early, defensively he is very good I could see him being their Backlund in a way.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Part A is a pretty substantial difference at that age.
Part B, I also agree is pretty significantly different, but I don't get what that has to do with anything that I was getting at:

Yes. Monahan is a better player than Bo Horvat, and he likely will be over the course of their careers. However, we should expect Horvat to close that gap a little as both players mature.

I like Horvat a lot, I think he's going to be a good player for Vancouver and more importantly a good leader. But I've never thought that he had anywhere near Monahan's offensive skill set while both are great defensive centers.

I don't think he's going to be more then a tweener 3 2nd center

[Samiz]

Is anyone able to dig up the stat for number of games won after overcoming at least a 2 goal deficit at any point in the game?

It seems like the Flames are usually down by 2 before making the comeback, would be interesting to see :P

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I like Horvat a lot, I think he's going to be a good player for Vancouver and more importantly a good leader. But I've never thought that he had anywhere near Monahan's offensive skill set while both are great defensive centers.

I don't think he's going to be more then a tweener 3 2nd center

I agree completely. But that still means that he will close the gap—if even only a little—on Monahan. So, instead of appearing as though he is completely out of Monahan's league as a player, it is not unreasonable to expect that he will look better compared to Monahan than he does now.

But yeah, I don't want anyone to misconstrue what I am saying: Horvat is nowhere near as good a player as Monahan—and he likely never will be.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I agree completely. But that still means that he will close the gap—if even only a little—on Monahan. So, instead of appearing as though he is completely out of Monahan's league as a player, it is not unreasonable to expect that he will look better compared to Monahan than he does now.

But yeah, I don't want anyone to misconstrue what I am saying: Horvat is nowhere near as good a player as Monahan—and he likely never will be.

In the 12 months before their 19th birthdays:

Monahan: 31G 47A 78P with Ottawa
Horvat...: 30G 44A 74P with London

In the 12 months before their 20th birthdays:

Monahan: 22G 12A 34P with Calgary
Horvat...: 12G 12A 24P with Vancouver (at his current pace)

Monahan is pulling ahead.

Then, in the year before his 21st birthday, Monahan has increased his production by 56% on a PPG basis.

So in order for Horvat to not fall behind even more next year, he would have to produce at a 46 PPG pace.

Do you seriously expect that from him?

If not, he will continue to fall even further behind Monahan, correcting for age.

[Bingo]

Could be an odd place for a Monahan conversation, but his production this year has altered my view of the top two centers going forward.

I envisioned a Bennett as the stud offensive center and Monahan as the two way guy that plays on the second line. However given the kid is heading towards 30 goals at the age of 20 that just seems silly.

Really like the fact that they could in fact be heading towards a two headed monster instead of a center 1 and center 2 situation.

All this with the caveat that while Monahan is doing it, Bennett is still just a projection.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Remember when Monahan's goals were guaranteed to go down because.. shooting percentage.