Spoilers - Dr Strange 2 - Spoilers

[Harry Lime]

IMO every member of the illuminati is pretty close to what the Canon version will be.

[djsFlames]

For the storytelling standards you're drawing here that you're claiming this movie doesn't pass it makes me wonder which marvel films you consider great in comparison and how they hold up to the same standards..

Because these are all 'B' movies in a lot of ways when it comes to character development and storytelling.

They play it very safely, and focus much more on spectacle, references and "bad ass" moments than the layers and intricacies of its characters.

At least they finally, actually took the time and care to develop a villain here that isn't Thanos.

Most villains in MCU's stand alone features have been paper thin, fall into bland stereotypes, or are just outright caricatures that are hard to take seriously.

You're entitled to your opinion but I don't buy your reasoning as being why this didn't hit. I think it didn't have the fist pump moments you wanted and cameos/hero portrayals that would've sold you, and probably weren't a fan of the horror angle which won other viewers of different tastes over. Its funny how marvel fans will overlook a lot of deficiencies in stories because of cameos or cap hammer type moments. But then when they don't get their comic-gasm moments suddenly its about "lapses in plot" and "character motivations" and suddenly we're holding a popcorn munching action film to Academy standards.

Just be honest.

None of us actually watch marvel films for that bs, unless you're truly that invested in Wanda's character that it warranted such scrutiny in your mind.

Thanks for playing English teacher while you're at it. Gotta love people that feel the need to educate while having a friendly pop culture debate. Thats how you know they're pompous dinks in disguise.

I'll take my heels turns both ways, thanks.

[Yamer]

You're not a pretentious blowhard for wanting narrative consistency and payoff in superhero movies. I enjoy the MCU because they have been dedicated to developing their characters in spite of the expected action and visual spectacle of the genre. To me it felt like they betrayed what they had done with Wanda in WandaVision. Her redemption at the end of the series is undone within 2 minutes of screen time in the film. She's just suddenly an indiscriminate serial killer.

For a studio that spent a decade intricately weaving together stories and have it hit as well as it did for Infinity War/Endgame this seemed out of sorts. I had far more empathy for Tony and his daughter than I did for Wanda and her sons because it was more narratively consistent. I don't think having that opinion makes someone a "pompous dink". I think it shows the standards that Feige and the MCU have set for its audience, which is typically higher than lower.

Wanda took a quick, hard heel turn even after playing the well intentioned "bad guy" that saw the error of their ways and sacrificed everything in WandaVision. I'm thankful that I have some background knowledge of the Darkhold from Agents of SHIELD (not a comic book guy) so I can somewhat rationalize her behaviour in the film, although I still don't fully buy it. She was a good villain and would have made for a better one with a bit more exposition, but alas.

However, even if the Sam Raimi experiment wasn't my cup of tea I do hope they continue to take risks like this with their filmmaking. Phase 4 has played around with unique ways of telling stories and so far, for the most part, it has worked and feels fresh. This isn't a style I can appreciate like some others, but I sure don't like being thought of as a drooling simpleton waiting for big booms and cameos because I'm critical of a film's substance.

[DionTheDman]

Originally Posted by Yamer

...To me it felt like they betrayed what they had done with Wanda in WandaVision. Her redemption at the end of the series is undone within 2 minutes of screen time in the film. She's just suddenly an indiscriminate serial killer.
...
Wanda took a quick, hard heel turn even after playing the well intentioned "bad guy" that saw the error of their ways and sacrificed everything in WandaVision.

But they made a point to say that the Darkhold has a corrupting influence on those that read it. So while Wanda did redeem herself at the end of Wandavision, she was brought down a dark path again by the Darkhold. Hence the park with Charles Xavier going into her mind and seeing Wanda, actual Wanda, vulnerable and trapped in there.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

But they made a point to say that the Darkhold has a corrupting influence on those that read it. So while Wanda did redeem herself at the end of Wandavision, she was brought down a dark path again by the Darkhold. Hence the park with Charles Xavier going into her mind and seeing Wanda, actual Wanda, vulnerable and trapped in there.

The Wanda in Xavier's scene was that dimension's Wanda that the Scarlett Witch was 'dreamwalking', not a part of her psyche.

I mentioned that I was familiar with the Darkhold and its role from Agents of SHIELD, but I don't believe that a sufficient explanation for her complete psychopathy. It simply betrays her character development.

[Coach]

Overall really loved this.

Much more violent than I was expecting, and I enjoyed Wanda's whole role really. Nice to have a genuinely scary villain.

Minor gripes were things like "Why are dimension-hopping wizards throwing beams at each other?" and "Is there a reason that door would stop her when the 10 others didnt?"

Major wahoos were things like the soundtrack fight and Krasinski Reed.

Really liked the Chavez character. Hope we get to see some more of her. I liked that they just threw your right into the world like, "okay, you're in Dr. Strange land now. There's a mummy monster chasing him and a multi-verse travelling teenager trying to find a magic book. Deal with it." You're either on the MCU road by now or your not really. No reason to try and cater Dr Strange 2 Multi-Verse Cop to someone who isn't watching Marvel properties.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by #-3

I'd say WhatIf isn't essential at all.

Even though they steal a lot of the visual style and themes from it, it's clearly not drawn from the same reality that you are thinking of.

What-if spoiler

Spoiler!

Yes it isn’t the same universe in the multiverse in what if.

I think that the concept of the absolute point where Christine and him never get together in any universe and why this particular strange or any strange isn’t happy is better developed by that what if. It’s also another example of Stranges single minded arrogance to solve a problem. So in my opinion adds a lot to the Illuminati’s thoughts on strange and additional believability that evil doctor strange would destroy a universe for Christine.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Yamer

The Wanda in Xavier's scene was that dimension's Wanda that the Scarlett Witch was 'dreamwalking', not a part of her psyche.

I mentioned that I was familiar with the Darkhold and its role from Agents of SHIELD, but I don't believe that a sufficient explanation for her complete psychopathy. It simply betrays her character development.

It was already in Wandavision that she would be corrupted by the Scarlett witch and the dark hold. Agatha’s monologue essentially foretold this movie and the stinger already had the dark hold showing her children in pain without her. She also had vision and her children to help her make the right decision but once their gone she’s back alone with the dark hold.

I understand the complaints about development if you didn’t watch Wandavision but I thought it was pretty clear from the end of Wandavision that Wanda was going to be the Villian in the next movie. I didn’t think Disney would letter go full evil.

I think the more reasonable complaint is the crazy mom trope juxtaposed against hero dads. This Strange was willing to sacrifice entire universes to protect his surrogate child from Wanda and is a hero because of it and is motivated to become more rational as a result whereas Wanda’s love for her children makes her crazy.

In retrospect I think you are right that Xavier was trying to pull out 818 Wanda but when I was watching I had originally interpreted it as the part of Wanda that wasn’t corrupted by the dark hold as well.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

IMO every member of the illuminati is pretty close to what the Canon version will be.

So they're totally useless in canon?

[GreenLantern]

I mean, if Battlestar can go toe to toe with Super Soldiers in Falcon and the Winter Soldier I guess Wanda could dumby the Illuminati that fast, including Professor Xavier..

The power levels have always been all over the place and inconsistent in the MCU. They were more of a plot piece than anything. A way for Raimi to flex some 'horrible' deaths like the MCU has not yet seen.

I really enjoyed it all honestly and it did feel actually realistic for once, outside of the Xavier thing.. I think his mental fortitude would be stronger than that and his death kind of confused me.

[PeteMoss]

I haven't seen this - but reading the plot summary on wikipedia - it sounds hella complicated. I assume it works better as a movie than a plot summary

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

I mean, if Battlestar can go toe to toe with Super Soldiers in Falcon and the Winter Soldier I guess Wanda could dumby the Illuminati that fast, including Professor Xavier..

The power levels have always been all over the place and inconsistent in the MCU. They were more of a plot piece than anything. A way for Raimi to flex some 'horrible' deaths like the MCU has not yet seen.

I really enjoyed it all honestly and it did feel actually realistic for once, outside of the Xavier thing.. I think his mental fortitude would be stronger than that and his death kind of confused me.

In House of M Wanda overpowers Xavier to start that series off so Canonically Scarlett Witch can defeat him.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

I mean, if Battlestar can go toe to toe with Super Soldiers in Falcon and the Winter Soldier I guess Wanda could dumby the Illuminati that fast, including Professor Xavier..

The power levels have always been all over the place and inconsistent in the MCU. They were more of a plot piece than anything. A way for Raimi to flex some 'horrible' deaths like the MCU has not yet seen.

I really enjoyed it all honestly and it did feel actually realistic for once, outside of the Xavier thing.. I think his mental fortitude would be stronger than that and his death kind of confused me.

If I think about the backstory on that, I think that maybe the Illuminati overlook Wanda because she's not a threat in their universe. Maybe she's only a threat in one. Whereas Strange is a threat in many, but maybe only a hero in one? I dunno. Lots of ways to think about it.

[Hockey_Ninja]

I enjoyed the film but this is a movie that I think actually would’ve benefited from being longer to flesh certain things out (Specifically America)

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I thought Wandavision was somewhere between mediocre and terrible. Anything this movie can do to distance itself from that would be good. Apparently Raimi didn’t even watch it before he made Strange, which is promising.

[Harry Lime]

I don't think that there has ever been a director's cut of an MCU movie, but it wouldn't surprised me if there is a director's cut of this one.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by GGG

What-if spoiler

Spoiler!

Yes it isn’t the same universe in the multiverse in what if.

I think that the concept of the absolute point where Christine and him never get together in any universe and why this particular strange or any strange isn’t happy is better developed by that what if. It’s also another example of Stranges single minded arrogance to solve a problem. So in my opinion adds a lot to the Illuminati’s thoughts on strange and additional believability that evil doctor strange would destroy a universe for Christine.

The big hint that it isn't the same universe is that in the movie he said he used the Darkhold to destroy his universe. While in the Cartoon he essentially destroyed it with the time stone. There's other stuff like not clearly not following the ending of WhatIF, but the big one is that they were destroyed in different ways. And in your cannon the fact that at least 3 Stranges have destroyed a universe makes the illuminatis fear even more justified.

I think it's fine that it's not the same Universe, and having it be the same would have added little. I was just saying WhatIf is far from essential watching to understand this movie, even if it does contribute a lot to the film in terms of style. Even the Captain Carter thing, which is probably the most important part is probably pretty easy to untangle for anyone who has seen any other marvel content with Atwell in it.

[Sr. Mints]

Saw Doctor Strange 2 last night, and while I feel a tad guilty cheating on my hockey team (and feel partially responsible for the Flames losing, 'if only I had been cheering them on....') Yeah okay not really.

I managed to avoid every single spoiler going in (go me!) and was at times jaw-droppingly shocked at some of the events in the movie. I assumed it would be a Wanda and Doctor Strange team-up. Of course Reed Richards and Prof. X.

Like a lot of phase 4, there are a lot of places, people, and comic book events that mean little to absolutely nothing to me. That's not to say I was lost or can't figure things out as they unfold on screen, but it is an uncharted departure from my my experience with the past ~12 years of MCU media.

In terms of style, I was actually a bit worried about Sam Raimi. Last month I was hammered with covid, and watched a lot of television, including the entirety of the Spider-man collection. It was shocking how badly I thought Raimi's trilogy held up to time. Raimi's fault? Probably not, but it did give me pause over the director helming Multiverse of Madness. The movie has Raimi's stamp all over it--and in a good way. It's a refreshing, unpredictable chapter in the MCU.

Like The Eternals and Jon Snow whatshisface's end credit scene, I have no idea who Charlize Theron plays (beyond what I just read.) I kind of like being in the dark in phase 4, but also not really

Anyway. I really do need to see the movie again cause there's just so much more to unpack than typical Marvel, but I'd give Multiverse of Madness a 7.5/10

[Coach]

I can’t help but agree with Feige where the trailers gave away too much. You’d think he’d have some control over that. Would be fine to going to much simpler trailers. You don’t need a bunch of footage to sell these movies.

The reveal of the Illuminati wouldn’t have been so awesome without the trailers spoiling most of them. Never would have expected it. Instead I got that surprise a few months ago when watching the trailer without the whole context. Still a nice surprise, but ruins the moment in the movie really. Same with Zombie Strange. You know he’s coming back as he gets buried. Just spoils it.

I know I don’t have to watch them, honestly after the 1st two I didn’t. I’ve noticed by the time a movie is releasing it’s 3rd or 4th trailer it starts giving away things I wish it hadn’t.

[photon]

Yeah I tend to avoid the last few trailers before a movie now and am very glad I did for this.

Thought the movie was lots of fun, I do kind of wish Wanda's corruption would have felt less whiplash-y; give the backslide more time.

And I was very surprised at how much they depended on WandaVision to be able to understand stuff (my son even asked me 'do we need to watch WandaVision to understand what's going on').

Still it was fun and very different from other MCU films which is nice. Not among my favorites but still good.