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Old 09-13-2017, 04:50 PM   #1201
Enoch Root
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If you want to play anecdote the money spent on tickets by people living in Calgary leaves the province at a greater rate than money spent on other options. Hockey is a wealth concentrator. The hockey players wealth is then spent on luxury goods with a large component that is out of market. If you look at one of the best ways to stimulate an economy it is to give money to average people and let them spend it as it has a multiplier effect as its spent from business to business. This is the opposite of the flames when a large number of average people spend large sums of money concentrating it into a small number of people which then leaves the province through investments, vacations and luxury goods.

So if you get rid of the flames yes a small % of less money comes into the city but a larger amount of money stays in the city as people eat out more and spend the money in the local economy instead of flames tickets.
This assumes that the majority of revenues are gate receipts. If a large portion of HRR is TV revenue, then the fact that the players don't keep their money in the city is less relevant because that money came from the TV deal anyway.

Also, the claim that people spend their money in the local economy is dubious.

You assume the players spend their money elsewhere, but assume STHs will spend their money in town. Can you not see the weakness in these assumptions?
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:51 PM   #1202
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Well, we don't know his marching orders from ownership.

What we can see, since 2001:

5 GMs
9 coaches
7 farm teams
4 playoff series won
2 failed third jerseys
2014-15 sell-out streak ends
1 half-baked arena proposal
Lots of ways to skin a cat. Tens of Millions of dollars in profit, potentially hundreds of million saved on an arena, maximizing resale value and asset maturation.

You can't be a flames fan for any considerable amount of time and also think winning has ever been the top priority. The two almost seem divorced from one-another.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:51 PM   #1203
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That would be relevant if 100% of the money you currently spend on the Flames recycled directly into the local economy. But it doesn't.

For example, the Flames' scouts are paid with money earned here, but live and work elsewhere. So a portion of your season ticket money leaves the city for that. Johnny Gaudreau buys an island for his mom? That money, much of it originally derived from ticket holders in Calgary, is now exported. And so on - the money you are paying into the Flames gets redistributed locally at a certain efficiency, and likely not a particularly high one.

So you would be less locally efficient with your cash, by now prioritizing travel, but others would offset that by being more locally efficient - or so the studies say. You theoretically shifting your habits to travel instead of season tickets is therefore still just one data point and not conclusive evidence of anything.

PS: You know what else the Flames spend millions and millions a year on? Travel. Way more money than you'll ever spend, waving its little moneyhands goodbye.
Did you factor in all the TV revenue that gets paid to the players?

You're making one-sided assumptions too.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:52 PM   #1204
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I wanted to comment on this because I too was in Winnipeg, and was a STH, when the Jets left town.

WinnipegFan is right. It is devastating. After the anger and the blaming subsides, what is left is a huge void. It doesn't matter to everyone of course, but having an NHL hockey team matters to a lot of Canadians - probably most. It certainly matters to me.

And what it meant for me and my family was that it was the catalyst that prompted our move to Calgary. I am not suggesting it was the only reason, but it definitely helped make the decision final. It meant the end of the line for Winnipeg, as far as me and my family were concerned.

A pro sports team adds to the community aspect of a city. In an increasingly anonymous society, where we don't even know all our neighbours anymore, sports teams bring us together. They give the city identity. The simple fact of the matter is that we are all here communicating with each other because the Flames exist.

My wife recruits globally for a national firm. Anyone who thinks city reputations don't matter, has clearly never recruited from outside Canada. The vast majority of people considering moving to Canada (we're talking people with choices, not refugees) suggest that they want to go to one of three places: Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary (and Montreal if they can speak French).

I bring this up to tie it back to Winnipeg. If the Flames left, it wouldn't turn that upside down all on its own. But I have no doubt that it would be a major catalyst that would in fact move Calgary in the wrong direction with respect to that impression. It would without a doubt change Calgary's status, relative to other cities. And not in a good way.

For anyone that talks about the Flames leaving town with a flippant, good riddance attitude, I would suggest that you be careful what you wish for.

Having said all that, I think there is little to no chance that the team will leave. We shouldn't bend over backwards or be held hostage to a terrible deal. But nor should we we be arrogant and flippant with respect to what the team means for the city.
Pro sports obviously have an emotional appeal to fans. So fans should pay for it: ticket tax 100%

Why should Jim and judy Smith use their taxes to pay for an arena because you have an emotional connection to it and are worried the city will "lose something"

Not discounting the emotional value, but cannot imagine its worth 200 million

Last edited by Cappy; 09-13-2017 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:55 PM   #1205
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When I say control I would think they would be looking for an option to purchase and develop.



Because they have a desire to make money from the spinoff of their enterprise. I would much rather have them do it than CMLC.



That's one way of looking at it.



Uh, nope. When it comes to revenues generated by the Calgary Flames they need to be carefully accounted for so they are compliant with the CBA. If the city tried to make connections to hockey related revenues, this would be a major no-go, regardless of what the team could agree to. You're right that the Garth Books revenues have little bearing on things, but if the formula used by the city was dependent on total revenues, including HRR, that would be a big no from the team and the league. Based on the team's response, and the hedging by Nenshi is his press gathering, I would bet that the formula was based on monies the team does not have full control over.
I have no idea where in the CalgaryNEXT proposal nor the small info we have received regarding the Flames desires in around the Vic Park location you have managed to pull that they have any desire/expertise/interest/plans to develop anything other than sports facilities primarily for themselves. Just because someone drew a bunch of rectangles in the CalgaryNEXT Sketchup drawing and dragged it along the z axes does not mean the CSEC has any intentions to develop hotels, bars, restaurants, or condos.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:55 PM   #1206
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Then fans should pay for it: ticket tax 100%
Not that your comment deserves a reply but you're drawing the conclusion that only fans that pay for tickets benefit from the team being part of the community.

The vast majority of fans go to two or less games a year. Most go to none. They love their team and some sign up to forums to discuss their team, but they shouldn't have to pay anything for the benefit?

Edit: to reply to your edit, Jim and Judy do benefit. Also, the city isn't being asked to contribute $200M
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:57 PM   #1207
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http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...-his-own-arena

I usually roll my eyes at sports papers/news for their biases in these debates (960 is so bad right now). I get it, Kerr, you'll lose your job if they move so of course you support it.

This coming from the Hockey News was surprising
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:57 PM   #1208
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Not that your comment deserves a reply but you're drawing the conclusion that only fans that pay for tickets benefit from the team being part of the community.

The vast majority of fans go to two or less games a year. Most go to none. They love their team and some sign up to forums to discuss their team, but they shouldn't have to pay anything for the benefit?

Edit: to reply to your edit, Jim and Judy do benefit. Also, the city isn't being asked to contribute $200M
They do pay, they pay in merchandise, advertising, tv subscriptions. What else do we need to pay for?
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:59 PM   #1209
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This assumes that the majority of revenues are gate receipts. If a large portion of HRR is TV revenue, then the fact that the players don't keep their money in the city is less relevant because that money came from the TV deal anyway.

Also, the claim that people spend their money in the local economy is dubious.

You assume the players spend their money elsewhere, but assume STHs will spend their money in town. Can you not see the weakness in these assumptions?
The majority of revenues are gate receipts teams average 14 million from the Rogers deal.

I agree that my above statements have a high variance that's why there are numerous studies linked previously that discuss this and conclude it's not worth the money. Argue that the civic pride makes it worth it or more concerts that you get to attend. There is a value in that. But quit pedalog the economic falsehood.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:08 PM   #1210
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Did you factor in all the TV revenue that gets paid to the players?

You're making one-sided assumptions too.
The TV revenue is utterly irrelevant to what money you are spending on the Flames and how locally efficient that is. And I'm not assuming anything, especially not that some of the Flames income gets redistributed outside the city, and thus there is not 100% local efficiency for money you put into their coffers.

I don't think it's impossible there is some small economic stimulus to having a major sports team. However, experts have been looking for evidence and not finding it, which is usually a good indication it's not there, regardless of all the simple, but wrong, reasons why it supposedly exists.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:08 PM   #1211
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Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
Not that your comment deserves a reply but you're drawing the conclusion that only fans that pay for tickets benefit from the team being part of the community.

The vast majority of fans go to two or less games a year. Most go to none. They love their team and some sign up to forums to discuss their team, but they shouldn't have to pay anything for the benefit?

Edit: to reply to your edit, Jim and Judy do benefit. Also, the city isn't being asked to contribute $200M
no, they shouldn't, because its a private-for-profit business venture

it sounds like it may surprise you to hear that not everyone is a flames fan, or even a hockey fan in general. forcing them to contribute to a profitable, private entertainment company because affluent people like you and me enjoy pro hockey enough to spend thousands of dollars a year voluntarily is ludicrous
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:09 PM   #1212
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The majority of revenues are gate receipts teams average 14 million from the Rogers deal.

I agree that my above statements have a high variance that's why there are numerous studies linked previously that discuss this and conclude it's not worth the money. Argue that the civic pride makes it worth it or more concerts that you get to attend. There is a value in that. But quit pedalog the economic falsehood.
'conclude' - based on assumptions

And not worth what money? How much? Is there a line in the sand? Or are you confident that there is no economic argument that makes sense in any city ever, for any amount?

Get off your high horse, there is no definitive proof on your side either. The adamance with which people bring up these studies is astounding.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:11 PM   #1213
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'conclude' - based on assumptions

And not worth what money? How much? Is there a line in the sand? Or are you confident that there is no economic argument that makes sense in any city ever, for any amount?

Get off your high horse, there is no definitive proof on your side either. The adamance with which people bring up these studies is astounding.
There is far more "proof" on his side than yours.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:21 PM   #1214
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I wanted to comment on this because I too was in Winnipeg, and was a STH, when the Jets left town.

WinnipegFan is right. It is devastating. After the anger and the blaming subsides, what is left is a huge void. It doesn't matter to everyone of course, but having an NHL hockey team matters to a lot of Canadians - probably most. It certainly matters to me.

And what it meant for me and my family was that it was the catalyst that prompted our move to Calgary. I am not suggesting it was the only reason, but it definitely helped make the decision final. It meant the end of the line for Winnipeg, as far as me and my family were concerned.

A pro sports team adds to the community aspect of a city. In an increasingly anonymous society, where we don't even know all our neighbours anymore, sports teams bring us together. They give the city identity. The simple fact of the matter is that we are all here communicating with each other because the Flames exist.

My wife recruits globally for a national firm. Anyone who thinks city reputations don't matter, has clearly never recruited from outside Canada. The vast majority of people considering moving to Canada (we're talking people with choices, not refugees) suggest that they want to go to one of three places: Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary (and Montreal if they can speak French).

I bring this up to tie it back to Winnipeg. If the Flames left, it wouldn't turn that upside down all on its own. But I have no doubt that it would be a major catalyst that would in fact move Calgary in the wrong direction with respect to that impression. It would without a doubt change Calgary's status, relative to other cities. And not in a good way.

For anyone that talks about the Flames leaving town with a flippant, good riddance attitude, I would suggest that you be careful what you wish for.

Having said all that, I think there is little to no chance that the team will leave. We shouldn't bend over backwards or be held hostage to a terrible deal. But nor should we we be arrogant and flippant with respect to what the team means for the city.
Enoch, you obviously have a huge emotional connection to the Flames for reasons I am not expecting you to divulge. It being a catalyst in your decision to move your family to Calgary, it's clear that you have a larger emotional connection, and gain a greater identity from them than most of us on this site. That's not meant to be derogatory or accusatory, I'm just trying to come from your position on this as you have been one of the staunchest advocates for the proposal. Again, I mean no ill intent from that statement.

However, not everyone derives the same emotional benefit from the Flames as you (or the Jets for WpgFan). Many of us are pretty big Flames fans. We wouldn't be on this site if we weren't. CP is probably one of the largest collection of Flames fans on the internet - and yet almost 60% rejected the CalgaryNext proposal, and a sizeable minority are against significant contribution form the city.

In the end, many of Calgarians treat the Flames as just another entertainment option in a city filled with them (granted, it could be argued that Calgary has fewer in comparison to other major cities) and we are less willing to see the city spend its limited resources on one of those options where that money can be better used.

You can continue to make your arguments in favour of the arena and that the city should pay a significant amount; but, you cannot assume that we all have the same emotional connection to the team as you appear to have.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:29 PM   #1215
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Enoch, you obviously have a huge emotional connection to the Flames for reasons I am not expecting you to divulge. It being a catalyst in your decision to move your family to Calgary, it's clear that you have a larger emotional connection, and gain a greater identity from them than most of us on this site. That's not meant to be derogatory or accusatory, I'm just trying to come from your position on this as you have been one of the staunchest advocates for the proposal. Again, I mean no ill intent from that statement.

However, not everyone derives the same emotional benefit from the Flames as you (or the Jets for WpgFan). Many of us are pretty big Flames fans. We wouldn't be on this site if we weren't. CP is probably one of the largest collection of Flames fans on the internet - and yet almost 60% rejected the CalgaryNext proposal, and a sizeable minority are against significant contribution form the city.

In the end, many of Calgarians treat the Flames as just another entertainment option in a city filled with them (granted, it could be argued that Calgary has fewer in comparison to other major cities) and we are less willing to see the city spend its limited resources on one of those options where that money can be better used.

You can continue to make your arguments in favour of the arena and that the city should pay a significant amount; but, you cannot assume that we all have the same emotional connection to the team as you appear to have.
First of all, thanks for a thoughtful post without any attacks or inflamed opinions - I appreciate it. And your comments are all fair, though I absolutely do not assume everyone has the same emotional connection that I do.

But I can tell you this - like WinnipegFan found as well - when the team leaves, a whole lot more people feel the loss than expect to. The city suffered from it. Non-hockey fans felt it too - people that thought they wouldn't care, and wanted no part of tax dollars going to a team that they didn't even follow or care about.

I didn't write that as some kind of threat. Nor do I expect everyone to feel the same way. I simply expressed what I experienced in Winnipeg. I certainly wouldn't expect half the city to get up and move - that was not the point.

The point was that the real, tangible effect for the city - for everyone - was far greater than anyone expected it to be.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:31 PM   #1216
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Are we re-writing history now and pretending the Jets left because they couldn't get a publicly funded arena?

Not enough people went to the games. It's not like they were sold out every night and still couldn't make a profit.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:36 PM   #1217
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Not that your comment deserves a reply but you're drawing the conclusion that only fans that pay for tickets benefit from the team being part of the community.

The vast majority of fans go to two or less games a year. Most go to none. They love their team and some sign up to forums to discuss their team, but they shouldn't have to pay anything for the benefit?

Edit: to reply to your edit, Jim and Judy do benefit. Also, the city isn't being asked to contribute $200M
"Now, itís easy to conjure up scenarios where a new hockey arena would benefit the public, but this has been disproven time and again by economic impact studies. Without going into too much detail, when you give tax money (or potential revenue through tax breaks or bonds) to help a private company build an arena or stadium, you are taking that money away from schools, hospitals or any other major public project that governments pay for. And donít get me wrong Ė new arenas are awesome Ė but only a slice of a cityís population actually uses them and those folks still have to pay to get in (and most likely pay stunning amounts for parking)."
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:36 PM   #1218
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The more I think about this the owners should cut out the City altogether and build their own facility.

The owners could spread out the risk among those of us taxpayers who want to participate (to the tune of say $200m which is not an unrealistic amount that could be underwritten by a syndicate of investment banks) by investment under some kind of public REIT structure whereby the owners of the facility (made up of the owners of the Flames, who would own say 2/3 of the equity, and the investors) license the arena to the Flames as primary tenant and receive the benefit of income from other events (concerts, conventions etc.). As long as the arena is profitable, how is this any different than investing in a shopping centre or apartment REIT?
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:40 PM   #1219
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Are we re-writing history now and pretending the Jets left because they couldn't get a publicly funded arena?
Are we incapable of understanding what we just read? Enoch was talking about the effect on a community when the only major-league sports franchise in town packs up and leaves. Why the team leaves is not relevant to that point.

If anything, it strengthens his point. If the Jets, who had so few fans that they could not fill up one of the smallest arenas in the NHL at low ticket prices, left that kind of a void when they pulled out of the community, one would think the Flames, who have a larger and more avid fan base, will leave a bigger one.

But sure, let's accuse someone of being a liar because he didn't actually make the strawman argument that you wanted him to make.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:49 PM   #1220
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Are we incapable of understanding what we just read? Enoch was talking about the effect on a community when the only major-league sports franchise in town packs up and leaves. Why the team leaves is not relevant to that point.

If anything, it strengthens his point. If the Jets, who had so few fans that they could not fill up one of the smallest arenas in the NHL at low ticket prices, left that kind of a void when they pulled out of the community, one would think the Flames, who have a larger and more avid fan base, will leave a bigger one.

But sure, let's accuse someone of being a liar because he didn't actually make the strawman argument that you wanted him to make.
I guess not.
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