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Old 09-11-2019, 11:50 PM   #61
GullFoss
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We can all agree he won't be the guy he was expected to be when taken 4th overall.



But there is still some runway left to prove he's a top six player (on the bottom side of top six). Especially if he adds some finishing.



His play driving and chance generation certainly suggest there could be a little more there.
I'm not willing to admit this yet. Still think he can be top 3 Calibre forward. Call me an eternal Sam Bennett optimist
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:29 AM   #62
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I couldn’t imagine being 22 years old and turning down $77-$88 million dollars guaranteed. These salaries are getting ridiculous and it’s getting really hard to sympathize with these people.

Kind of turns me off of professional sports a bit if I’m being honest.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:25 AM   #63
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I'm not willing to admit this yet. Still think he can be top 3 Calibre forward. Call me an eternal Sam Bennett optimist
I'm in the same boat. I still see potential there, as much as a lot of people are down on him.

Heck, i don't think I even need him to be elite to make me happy. If he can score around 20 goals and 50 points, I'd be over the moon happy.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:29 AM   #64
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I couldn’t imagine being 22 years old and turning down $77-$88 million dollars guaranteed. These salaries are getting ridiculous and it’s getting really hard to sympathize with these people.

Kind of turns me off of professional sports a bit if I’m being honest.
Given the number of unsigned RFA’s, it is a league wide problem that needs some correction. The escalation in RFA salaries has turned the cap structure on its head. Teams haven’t been able to adjust fast enough. Makes you wonder if the owners wouldn’t want some structural changes to the process, but apparently not.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:40 AM   #65
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I couldn’t imagine being 22 years old and turning down $77-$88 million dollars guaranteed. These salaries are getting ridiculous and it’s getting really hard to sympathize with these people.

Kind of turns me off of professional sports a bit if I’m being honest.
that happened to me years ago, for the salaries in all sports.
I just look at it differently now.

in the current market, I think 11 million x 8 years is fair.

but lets say people think he should sign for 9x8, when the market says he's worth 11x8.
why should he give up 16 million dollars because people think rich is rich and nobody needs that kind of money?
I don't have sympathy for him "only" being offered 88 million dollars, but I can understand wanting what you're worth.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:46 AM   #66
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Tkachuk is more like Marchand than the other guys though. He's really ****ing good. He's just a total butthole.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:56 AM   #67
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I couldn’t imagine being 22 years old and turning down $77-$88 million dollars guaranteed. These salaries are getting ridiculous and it’s getting really hard to sympathize with these people.

Kind of turns me off of professional sports a bit if I’m being honest.
The way I view it is that the money is already there. The NHL is making billions.

If the players aren't making the big bucks, it's the already fat owners who get fatter. But make no mistake, the money is there.

I'd rather see the players get it since they ARE the product. I got no problem with players scratching and clawing for max dollars instead of the owners just getting more of it.

Having said that, there is a salary cap. So these holdouts are pointless and just hurt club and player.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:09 AM   #68
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I'm not willing to admit this yet. Still think he can be top 3 Calibre forward. Call me an eternal Sam Bennett optimist
I wouldn't go as far as a top 3 forward, but I am still optimistic he makes it to a 25/25 2nd line player, who plays with a nasty edge. These are players you need to have on your team if you ever want to win a Cup.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:45 AM   #69
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The way I view it is that the money is already there. The NHL is making billions.

If the players aren't making the big bucks, it's the already fat owners who get fatter. But make no mistake, the money is there.

I'd rather see the players get it since they ARE the product. I got no problem with players scratching and clawing for max dollars instead of the owners just getting more of it.

Having said that, there is a salary cap. So these holdouts are pointless and just hurt club and player.
Owners arent "getting more" of anything. The only dollars the player gets above what the team wants to pay them are coming from their teammates.

Its a 50/50 split regardless of the amount.

And there is no where for the players to make their money they do without the owners themselves...and they are the ones that take all the risk monetarily. If McDavid blows his knee out worse than he did last year, its possible Katz would have to pay him 90 million dollars for nothing.
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Tkachuk is more like Marchand than the other guys though. He's really ****ing good. He's just a total butthole.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:44 AM   #70
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I'm not willing to admit this yet. Still think he can be top 3 Calibre forward. Call me an eternal Sam Bennett optimist
Zero chance. He's a middle 6 player. Be happy with that.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:53 AM   #71
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Zero chance. He's a middle 6 player. Be happy with that.
Got Friday’s numbers for us?
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:02 PM   #72
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Mitch's Dad is that crazy hockey parent we have all seen in the Arena. Would not be surprised if he is driving the bus on these negotiations as well.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:20 PM   #73
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Gary Roberts at 22 was a hard nosed 22 goal 38 point player.
At 23, he scored 72 points and never looked back.

Some guys blossom later.

Daniel Sedin had 31 points at age 22.
Henrick Sedin had 39 points at 22.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:29 PM   #74
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Gary Roberts at 22 was a hard nosed 22 goal 38 point player.
At 23, he scored 72 points and never looked back.

Some guys blossom later.

Daniel Sedin had 31 points at age 22.
Henrick Sedin had 39 points at 22.
And Putin had at least 8 goals in one game at 66, you just never know...
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:34 PM   #75
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Gary Roberts at 22 was a hard nosed 22 goal 38 point player.
At 23, he scored 72 points and never looked back.

Some guys blossom later.

Daniel Sedin had 31 points at age 22.
Henrick Sedin had 39 points at 22.
Also years under Gulutzan are mulligans as far as I am concerned.

Not only do I think Bennett because a top six forward, I like the player that he is now.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:39 PM   #76
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The way I view it is that the money is already there. The NHL is making billions.

If the players aren't making the big bucks, it's the already fat owners who get fatter. But make no mistake, the money is there.

I'd rather see the players get it since they ARE the product. I got no problem with players scratching and clawing for max dollars instead of the owners just getting more of it.

Having said that, there is a salary cap. So these holdouts are pointless and just hurt club and player.
I agree that the players are entitled to their fair share. I just have a hard time sympathizing with players when it gets to the point where they’re turning down offers that make them one of the highest paid players in the league. Especially at 22 years old.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:45 PM   #77
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I personally think this is an overpay. Makes the Hanifin contract look even better.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:21 PM   #78
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I agree that the players are entitled to their fair share. I just have a hard time sympathizing with players when it gets to the point where they’re turning down offers that make them one of the highest paid players in the league. Especially at 22 years old.
Yeah, there are some interesting dynamics at play.

It isn't a situation whereby the money is either going to the player, or staying with the organization. In that case, I agree that the player - ALL players - have to fight to get paid as much as they can.

But things are very different in the current NHL. It is a hard cap, and the amount of money that will go to the players is finite, and unchangeable. What that means is the more Marner gets paid, the less every other player makes.

By fighting for huge dollars, and pushing salaries up, Marner (and Tkachuk, and any top-tier star) are essentially taking money out of their team-mates pockets.

And not only that, but they are also making their team less competitive.

I am not saying they are wrong to try and get all they can - hell, that is the only sensible thing for them to do. And they have to assume that any of their team-mates would do the same thing. The problem is that, for the reasons listed above, it is self-defeating. And that's why I have a hard time supporting guys that are holding out for crazy money.

If I am Marner's team-mate, I am kind of pissed. Hard not to think that he is putting himself before the team.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:57 PM   #79
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Yeah, there are some interesting dynamics at play.

It isn't a situation whereby the money is either going to the player, or staying with the organization. In that case, I agree that the player - ALL players - have to fight to get paid as much as they can.

But things are very different in the current NHL. It is a hard cap, and the amount of money that will go to the players is finite, and unchangeable. What that means is the more Marner gets paid, the less every other player makes.

By fighting for huge dollars, and pushing salaries up, Marner (and Tkachuk, and any top-tier star) are essentially taking money out of their team-mates pockets.

And not only that, but they are also making their team less competitive.

I am not saying they are wrong to try and get all they can - hell, that is the only sensible thing for them to do. And they have to assume that any of their team-mates would do the same thing. The problem is that, for the reasons listed above, it is self-defeating. And that's why I have a hard time supporting guys that are holding out for crazy money.

If I am Marner's team-mate, I am kind of pissed. Hard not to think that he is putting himself before the team.
Teams have always had budgets though, hard cap or not. I understand the point you are making, but even in the 80's, if a player negotiated hard and got more money, most owners were still operating on a budget and would have to give less to someone else. Not that many teams of the 30 had what seemed like unlimited funds.

It's also no different than a regular persons job. You walk into your bosses office and ask for a raise, and you get it.........someone else isn't getting that money or a portion of it because most businesses have planned budgets for salary and or salary increases. The more you get, the less someone else gets. It's not really a unique thing to these hockey players, it's kind of just how a free market economy works.
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Old 09-12-2019, 03:15 PM   #80
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Yeah, there are some interesting dynamics at play.

It isn't a situation whereby the money is either going to the player, or staying with the organization. In that case, I agree that the player - ALL players - have to fight to get paid as much as they can.

But things are very different in the current NHL. It is a hard cap, and the amount of money that will go to the players is finite, and unchangeable. What that means is the more Marner gets paid, the less every other player makes.

By fighting for huge dollars, and pushing salaries up, Marner (and Tkachuk, and any top-tier star) are essentially taking money out of their team-mates pockets.

And not only that, but they are also making their team less competitive.

I am not saying they are wrong to try and get all they can - hell, that is the only sensible thing for them to do. And they have to assume that any of their team-mates would do the same thing. The problem is that, for the reasons listed above, it is self-defeating. And that's why I have a hard time supporting guys that are holding out for crazy money.

If I am Marner's team-mate, I am kind of pissed. Hard not to think that he is putting himself before the team.
It’s a business for both team AND the player. He might be putting himself before the team in terms of money, but as you stated, that’s what he should be doing. And if everybody is doing that, how can players be mad at other players for something they would do themselves?
He’s also not taking money out of this teammates pockets. Those teammates either sign somewhere who will pay them what they’re worth when they’re UFA’s or if the player is good enough, the team will make changes to ensure they stay.
The business side is definitely ugly and there’s very little loyalty, but that's pro sports. There are tens of millions of dollars on the line and if I or anyone else on this forum were in Marner's shoes, we'd be doing the same thing.
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