[News] Ken Holland says Zetterberg is done playing hockey

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

I never understood this argument. If the injury is severe enough that it's keeping him out of playing action, why does it matter how much he's making? It doesn't matter if he's making $5 million next year or $1 million, he'd still be getting the same amount of money whether he's playing or on LTIR. So why does the fact that he's only making $5 million over the next three years matter at all?

It matters because if he was making $6 million next season the team would not want to pay him that much money to stay home and sit on the couch because he doesn't feel like playing through the grind.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by ThePrince

I never understood this argument. If the injury is severe enough that it's keeping him out of playing action, why does it matter how much he's making? It doesn't matter if he's making $5 million next year or $1 million, he'd still be getting the same amount of money whether he's playing or on LTIR. So why does the fact that he's only making $5 million over the next three years matter at all?

It matters from a salary cap point of view for the Red Wings.

[Yamer]

So just to follow up with the knowledge I have now, if Zetterberg officially retired the Wings would be on the hook for $5.35 million per season for 3 years in recapture penalties.

Is that correct?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Yamer

So just to follow up with the knowledge I have now, if Zetterberg officially retired the Wings would be on the hook for $5.35 million per season for 3 years in recapture penalties.

Is that correct?

Correct

[Vox]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It matters because if he was making $6 million next season the team would not want to pay him that much money to stay home and sit on the couch because he doesn't feel like playing through the grind.

If the doctors say he can't play, it doesn't matter what the team wants.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It's really too bad that he couldn't give it one more go, even if he didn't start the season... it would have been nice for him to come back later on and play out the final however many games he could just so that the organization could give him a goodbye. I'm sure they aren't going to make the playoffs anyway, so that could be a good thing to give the fans. As it is, sucks to go out like this.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Correct

I can math!

EDIT: And yeah, I can agree with you that this is kinda-sorta circumvention, but under the current CBA this is legal. And given the special circumstances I would tend to say there's really nothing shady about it.

[Buff]

Why does everything have to be a conspiracy theory? He can't play. The CBA works in a certain way and the teams and players are following the rules. If it were a serious issue for the NHL or NHLPA the would make sure this isn't possible. Legitimate or not, this works out for the players and the teams, so why should the fans care? It doesn't hurt us.

Go find another mole hill to turn into a mountain.

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanFromBC

Red Wings are a mess.

Roster of aging veteran players (last year they were the oldest team in league by average age), players that are injured long term, no cap space and players locked up into late 30's

At least they accumulated some prospects and picks over last couple years. Sporting news has them ranking 10th best prospect pipeline.

Yzerman has his work cut out for him. Lol

[Vox]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

It matters from a salary cap point of view for the Red Wings.

If his contract was not front loaded but spread out evenly over all years, the cap hit would be the same as it is now, and Zetterberg would eventually get the same amount of money and still play the same amount of hockey.

To the Prince's point, there is no incentive for Zetterberg to play through an injury last year because he made more money. If he went on LTIR last year and he was making $5M that year, he would have got the $5M. If he was making $1M he would have received the $1M. If the only thing he cared about was money he would go on LTIR as early as possible regardless of his yearly salary. I don't think he did that.

Retirement is a different case. There is plenty of incentive to retire early if you are not getting paid much in the latter years of your contract. That is the problem the NHL had to solve. LTIR was not the problem.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Vox

If the doctors say he can't play, it doesn't matter what the team wants.

There’s not a whole lot of trust in the system: doctors, teams, players etc.

Doctors let Monahan play last year. Guys with concussions are skating around the ice, later claiming they were dazed when they assaulted a linesman. It is hard to believe everyone is pure and perfectly consistent in the whole process IMO.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Vox

Retirement is a different case. There is plenty of incentive to retire early if you are not getting paid much in the latter years of your contract. That is the problem the NHL had to solve. LTIR was not the problem.

I think the problem that exists, and this may not be a good example but there is a problem, is that towards the end of a player's career there are any number of nagging injuries that could lead them to hang up their skates.

All too often, there will be something to blame it on to allow a player who's no longer effective (in part because of said injuries and the wear on the body that accompanies a long career) to exit without "retiring", thereby allowing his team to enjoy the benefit of a lower cap hit throughout the part of his contract when he was effective, without having to deal with the downside. It's a loophole: we get away with the mischief that cap recapture was designed to solve as long as we can say the retirement is due to injury.

[Vox]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

There’s not a whole lot of trust in the system: doctors, teams, players etc.

Doctors let Monahan play last year. Guys with concussions are skating around the ice, later claiming they were dazed when they assaulted a linesman. It is hard to believe everyone is pure and perfectly consistent in the whole process IMO.

Originally Posted by Buff

Why does everything have to be a conspiracy theory? He can't play. The CBA works in a certain way and the teams and players are following the rules. If it were a serious issue for the NHL or NHLPA the would make sure this isn't possible. Legitimate or not, this works out for the players and the teams, so why should the fans care? It doesn't hurt us.

Go find another mole hill to turn into a mountain.

I'm with Buff. Eventually you have to put some trust in someone. Perhaps it's in Zetterberg. Not everything is fake news and conspiracy.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Buff

Why does everything have to be a conspiracy theory? He can't play. The CBA works in a certain way and the teams and players are following the rules. If it were a serious issue for the NHL or NHLPA the would make sure this isn't possible. Legitimate or not, this works out for the players and the teams, so why should the fans care? It doesn't hurt us.

Go find another mole hill to turn into a mountain.

I can’t recall a single hall of fame level player retiring without getting emotional. I highly doubt these are easy decisions for the player.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I can’t recall a single hall of fame level player retiring without getting emotional. I highly doubt these are easy decisions for the player.

I am not saying he is quitting because he gets less in these last remaining years, I am sure he would play if he could which is my point, he can't play anymore. The LTIR is for players who could return at some point, he is not returning so by the rules of the CBA why should the Red Wings be able to negate his cap hit and not face recapture penalties when Zetterberg is clearly not going to play again?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

There’s not a whole lot of trust in the system: doctors, teams, players etc.

Doctors let Monahan play last year. Guys with concussions are skating around the ice, later claiming they were dazed when they assaulted a linesman. It is hard to believe everyone is pure and perfectly consistent in the whole process IMO.

Did doctors "let" Monahan play last year, or were they unaware of the seriousness of his injuries because of his own reluctance to disclose and cooperate? There are clearly failures within the system, but I don't know that these are because of negligence, but rather a product of circumstances and the professional sports culture. With very little time between games I think it is really difficult for team doctors to do much more than consult with the players, and if players are unwilling to disclose then what can they do? It is not really practical for doctors to have full access and carte blanch authority to conduct tests and examine players as often as they probably should under normal circumstances, so I don't know that there is really a viable solution to this.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I am not saying he is quitting because he gets less in these last remaining years, I am sure he would play if he could which is my point, he can't play anymore. The LTIR is for players who could return at some point, he is not returning so by the rules of the CBA why should the Red Wings be able to negate his cap hit and not face recapture penalties when Zetterberg is clearly not going to play again?

Is that a fact? I understand that this is your interpretation of this allowance, but is its intended purpose actually limited to provide cap relief ONLY for players with the potential to keep playing? I am not convinced—it seems quite reasonable to me that owners and GMs always had the intention of this stipulation as a protection for their clubs against career ending injuries in a salary-capped league.

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

These situations need a team Dr, an NHLPA Dr, a GM from the team and a player. All in one room, to come to an agreement that it is in the best interest of the player and his health, to quit playing hockey. Then the league should allow him to retire, and get his money owed through insurance. And the team should be able to move forward without LTIR and such. If a miracle happens and the player can come back in a year or two, the same guys should get together and figure out what happens at that point.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Did doctors "let" Monahan play last year, or were they unaware of the seriousness of his injuries because of his own reluctance to disclose and cooperate? There are clearly failures within the system, but I don't know that these are because of negligence, but rather a product of circumstances and the professional sports culture. With very little time between games I think it is really difficult for team doctors to do much more than consult with the players, and if players are unwilling to disclose then what can they do? It is not really practical for doctors to have full access and carte blanch authority to conduct tests and examine players as often as they probably should under normal circumstances, so I don't know that there is really a viable solution to this.

I absolutely don't believe any failures are necessarily a result of negligence, and never claimed so. Like all things, corruption and negligence are everywhere so I'm sure that's true in the NHL too. But I'm not suggesting that is true here.


Monahan wanted to play. That seems pretty clear.

What if Zetterberg doesn't want to play? I suspect that works it's way into the equation here. So it's not quite as simple to just refer to the doctor's opinion as the only relevant fact which is the point I was questioning.

And again I'm not questioning the legitimacy of Zetterberg's injury, or any other late career injury that occurs after a player has been paid the majority of their contract.

The entire problem IMO is how these things are handled under the cap system. Over the length of a player's career, there should not be a difference between what he is paid and what counts against the cap.

[Strange Brew]

Perhaps in the case of a career ending injury, there should be recapture of amounts previously paid over and above the cap hit, over the remaining length of the contract.

In this case, Detroit would be bringing in about $3 million of cap hit per year for next three years.