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Old 05-16-2018, 04:20 AM   #12421
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Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache View Post
Sam stalled under the gamble on a coach that took 60 point pace Gio to 38 and 39 point seasons, broke Brodie, and made the Brouwer acquisition look embarrassing.

21 years old. New coach.

*sigh*
Over and over people ignore this, Sam is almost 2 years younger than Jankowski ffs. At the same age Mark Scheifele could barely stick in the NHL and had 34 pts playing mostly 2nd center with PP time, 4 years later he's one of the better players in the league as a PPG center.

It would be an epic fail to trade Sam at 21 yrs old, if he doesn't "get it" within 2 years then fine. but not now.
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:47 AM   #12422
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Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
Over and over people ignore this, Sam is almost 2 years younger than Jankowski ffs. At the same age Mark Scheifele could barely stick in the NHL and had 34 pts playing mostly 2nd center with PP time, 4 years later he's one of the better players in the league as a PPG center.

It would be an epic fail to trade Sam at 21 yrs old, if he doesn't "get it" within 2 years then fine. but not now.
I'm open to trading Bennett now because I think he could still get us a decent return. No one is suggesting trading Bennett for peanuts.

Trading Bennett now has just as much potential for a "bullet dodged" as it does for an "epic fail". I think there's good points on both sides of the debate but to say that trading a guy who has scored 26 points/year the last two years would be an epic fail is a bit dismissive.

Also I've seen this argument a few times, but Mark Scheifele is the exception, not the rule.
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Old 05-16-2018, 06:55 AM   #12423
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This thread has become the same as the "TOO long" thread.

Sure. Like virtually every other player on the team, if someone wants to overpay for Sam then we listen. Otherwise we wait and see. I would rather the team showed patience than worry about dodging bullets. We are not so fragile as to be hurt so bad by the hit.
Looks better on the franchise than giving up would.

It is the same as with Brodie. Everyone agrees that selling low is bad, and trading either of these players would be selling low right now. The trick is forecasting if they will improve or drop even lower.
IMO you need to give the new coaching staff a crack at them first.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:06 AM   #12424
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Both Brodie’s and Bennett’s trajectories have been firmly in a downwards direction for two straight seasons now. It would be foolhardy not to be concerned at this point. Has it been considered by the other end that trading them might actually be maximizing their value to the organization before a third straight season of decline leaves them worthless?

I am indifferent about Sam, but I for one do not at all want to see bone head Brodie nonchalently lose this club several games on his own while barely caring to show up for 1 period each night.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:43 AM   #12425
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Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
Over and over people ignore this, Sam is almost 2 years younger than Jankowski ffs. At the same age Mark Scheifele could barely stick in the NHL and had 34 pts playing mostly 2nd center with PP time, 4 years later he's one of the better players in the league as a PPG center.

It would be an epic fail to trade Sam at 21 yrs old, if he doesn't "get it" within 2 years then fine. but not now.
Mark Scheifele never had IQ questions.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:09 AM   #12426
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And also the same coach who had Gaudreau score at over a point per game pace for the first time in his career, Monahan who set a career high in points despite playing a career low number of games and was injured for a quarter of them, Micheal Ferland who scored a career high 21 goals, Matthew Tkachuk who improved his point total despite playing 8 less games than the previous season, Mikael Backlund who finished 4th in Selke voting, Dougie Hamilton who scored 50 points one year and led all defenseman in goals the next year....

I think you get the point. Blaming the coach for Bennett is a cop out if you ask me. It's possible he turns it around this season, but nothing I've seen would lead me to believe that will be the case.


Some players thrive under some coaches while others don’t. Look at Bouwmeester for instance. He comes the Calgary coming off multiple 40pt seasons and over 10 goals for a couple of years. Under the Brent Sutter system he doesn’t hit 30pts for the Flames and is nothing like the player we hoped we were getting. Enter Hartley and his more run and gun style and Bouwmeester looks like a completely different player.

I feel Brodie has potential to bounce back moving to his comfortable side and playing in a new system. As for Bennett it doesn’t make sense to trade him unless the return is more than what his market value dictates today by a large margin.

I only see Bennett traded if he asked to be moved, a team is going to overpay based on potential, or he is part of a massive blockbuster package that returns the Flames the pieces they need next season (top winger or centre)
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:13 AM   #12427
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Originally Posted by Monahan For Mayor View Post
Mark Scheifele never had IQ questions.
Sam Bennett was the top rated skater in his draft year and his hockey iq was an asset.

Outside of this forum when had his hockey Iq been questioned?

Last edited by Vinny01; 05-16-2018 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Autocorrect
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:18 AM   #12428
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Originally Posted by Monahan For Mayor View Post
Mark Scheifele never had IQ questions.
He had "talent" issues though.

We all know what Bennett can become, you can see it in spurts all over the season. I do not buy also the IQ concept either. Bennett has gotten away from his game at times under GG.

Bennett needs to play like he did under Hartley. Crash that net more than anyone else, get refused a ton of goals and hit everything that moves. When Bennett came into the league the question mark was not his IQ but his weight. Now at around 200-210 if he played like he did under Hartley we would be having a different talk right now.

Just because he is most effective when he plays "simple" does not mean he has IQ problems. If you had to think for your linemates at times because you obviously had more talent you would be accused of having IQ problems also. I mean would you throw passes to Hath(nothing agaisnt the player)?

Key points to success for him
Bennett needs to stop taking wrist shots above the hash marks(his wrister is not his strong point)
Bennett needs to start taking more slappers and one timers
Bennett needs to be in the paint more this upcoming season like he was in his first season.
Bennett needs to make entries more along the boards(Very strong on the boards)
Be assertive every shift(guys a beast, has to show it)

If he does this i cannot see why he could not put up 40-45 points with 17 minutes a night. If he gets first line minutes I could easily see a 50-55 point season. Talents there, consistency isn't.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:40 AM   #12429
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And also the same coach who had Gaudreau score at over a point per game pace for the first time in his career, Monahan who set a career high in points despite playing a career low number of games and was injured for a quarter of them, Micheal Ferland who scored a career high 21 goals, Matthew Tkachuk who improved his point total despite playing 8 less games than the previous season, Mikael Backlund who finished 4th in Selke voting, Dougie Hamilton who scored 50 points one year and led all defenseman in goals the next year....

I think you get the point. Blaming the coach for Bennett is a cop out if you ask me. It's possible he turns it around this season, but nothing I've seen would lead me to believe that will be the case.
I don’t think it’s a cop out.

Natural development of stars on one line, given consistent line mates, entering their prime. And Tkachuk who is clearly a different player.

Once you get past the top line and Tkachuk, you have underachievements across the board.

Hamilton - whatever, he hasn’t improved materially on his last year in Boston.

No, being able to coach and get results from just the top line doesn’t get Gulutzan a pass. He saddled Bennett with Hathaway for goodness sake.

And while you want to give him a pass, look at how crappy the team did. And Backlund and Frolik were around -20. So there is that.

Coach fired for a reason. Not a cop out to hang some of the results of his crappy coaching on him
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:43 AM   #12430
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If he does this i cannot see why he could not put up 40-45 points with 17 minutes a night. If he gets first line minutes I could easily see a 50-55 point season. Talents there, consistency isn't.
Which is just part of normal player development.

Not directed towards you, but jeez I find it so bloody bizarre how some Flames fans are so negative towards young, developing players. There's no patience. Many of us called for a rebuild, but a few of us clearly didn't have the patience for it. We were flat out lucky to have Monahan and Tkachuk be the players they are at the spot we got them, and for them to be ready instantly. Then to have Gaudreau end up the way he did...

Then one of our young players actually requires development time (which should have taken place outside of the NHL - but our management team screwed that up), and people turn on the kid. It's goofy.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:48 AM   #12431
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I really wish I could be as optimistic about Bennett as some people. I really wish I could just blame his stalled development on Troy Brouwer. I'm just not seeing it but I hope I'm wrong.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:50 AM   #12432
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Which is just part of normal player development.

Not directed towards you, but jeez I find it so bloody bizarre how some Flames fans are so negative towards young, developing players. There's no patience. Many of us called for a rebuild, but a few of us clearly didn't have the patience for it. We were flat out lucky to have Monahan and Tkachuk be the players they are at the spot we got them, and for them to be ready instantly. Then to have Gaudreau end up the way he did...

Then one of our young players actually requires development time (which should have taken place outside of the NHL - but our management team screwed that up), and people turn on the kid. It's goofy.
Agree 100%

Sams a powerforward, a talented one at that. The way he plays the game takes time to learn. He needs to learn the limits to his physical game but play that way all the time.

I still have ample amounts of confidence that he will be a huge part of this team going forward. At 23-24 this player is going to be a beast, give him some time. Most players are still in the AHL at his age.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:54 AM   #12433
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I'd really like to see Peters give Bennett some reps with Backlund and/or Frolik. He would pick up some good habits and we'd get a good idea on the upper boundary of what we have in Bennett, currently.


If we acquire a top 6 forward, there's a good chance Frolik will drop to the 3rd line with Jankowski and Bennett, which I'd love to see

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Old 05-16-2018, 08:57 AM   #12434
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I really wish I could be as optimistic about Bennett as some people. I really wish I could just blame his stalled development on Troy Brouwer. I'm just not seeing it but I hope I'm wrong.
I think Glen Gulutzan was also a big part of it, but Bennett isn't perfect either. Guy is a young player who got rotten circumstances from Game 1 of 16/17 Game 11 of the 17/18 season, and then his circumstances only marginally improved thanks to a rookie centre giving him his first half decent linemate in over a year. Looking beyond all of that though - Bennett needed more development time if he wasn't going to be given good circumstances at the NHL level. He can't drive a line by himself, and he should never have been asked to (which is what happened in 16/17 and at the start of 17/18).

Bennett's time as a Flame:

Playoffs Debut - Awesome!
Season 1 - Awesome!
Season 2 - Centre with rubbish linemates in Gulutzan's system - awful.
Season 3 - Centre with rubbish linemates in Gulutzan's system to start, winger with rookie centre - awful, and then inconsistent but moments of strong promise.

Gully got nothing out of anyone beyond Gaudreau and Backlund's lines during his time here, and the Backlund line wasn't even very good in year 2 under Gully. Production from the blue line dropped. Gully did damage to the entire team...I struggle to imagine just how grim the last two years would have been if it weren't for Gaudreau's elite playmaking ability.

2017/2018: 216 GF (27th in the league)
2016/2017: 222 GF (16th in the league)

2015/2016: 229 GF (10th in the league)

...good grief. Is that not a screaming indictment of Gulutzan's system? Top 1/3rd in the league to middle of the pack, to bottom 5. People talk about how the Flames now play the game the right way...so they possessed the puck more of the time, but did less with it all while having a more talented roster? Gulutzan was a bad freaking coach, and more players than not suffered under him and the team suffered because of it.

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Old 05-16-2018, 09:05 AM   #12435
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It’s great so many feel so confident about Bennett becoming a good player, but I just don’t see any evidence to prove it. Also can we stop comparing him to elite players? Come on Marchand and Sheifele? He shouldn’t be mentioned in the same sentence as those players and nothing points to him becoming even remotely close to those players as of yet.

I dont mean to sound so negative but I’m trying to be a bit more realistic about this team going forward. I hope he pans out and becomes a solid player but after all the preseason hype about him last year Im not drinking anymore Bennett koolaid until I see results on the ice.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:05 AM   #12436
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I never really understood the low hockey IQ argument with Bennett. It looked like he was trying to buy into GGs system, even though it went against his own natural offensive instincts. The fact that he is coachable isn't necessarily a bad thing.

We really don't know what Bennett is at this point, which is what makes him unlikely to be traded. The same thing with Fox. The Calgary brass has a much better idea as to whether he is going to sign after getting his degree or not. If they choose not to trade him, then it's likely that they are confident in his word that he is not a flight risk.

The biggest worry to me with Fox is whether the progression of his game would stagnate if he were to stay in NCAA too long.

Either way, when it comes to trading assets, I don't see a desire from the Calgary side to move on from either of these two players. I do see them in almost every fan trade proposal, however.

From my perspective, it is the established roster players that have value to other GMs around the league, that we may have seen the last of.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:09 AM   #12437
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Watch Bennett in any game last year and then compare it the ones where he played on Gaudreau's wing towards the end of the season.

Now imagine a full season of that type of effort.

It was a night and day difference. To me at least.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:10 AM   #12438
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I really wish I could be as optimistic about Bennett as some people. I really wish I could just blame his stalled development on Troy Brouwer. I'm just not seeing it but I hope I'm wrong.
We all want to put the blame on something/someone that is holding Bennett back whether it's coaching, linemates, development, usage etc etc. The only person most of us don't want to put any responsibility on is Bennett.

I also don't get why people are railing on GG for Bennett's lack of development. When Bennett is taking countless unnecessary penalties... that's somehow on GG? Do you honestly think they didn't talk about that?
He wasn't the best coach but Tkachuk, Ferland, Monahan, Backlund and Jankowski all developed nicely under him.
Good players make the best out of the situation they're put in, regardless of how how crappy it may be. I'm not necessarily giving up on Bennett, but it's frustrating to see that he's shown no material improvements in any of his play or skills since entering the league.

Last edited by yourbestfriend; 05-16-2018 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:10 AM   #12439
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Watch Bennett in any game last year and then compare it the ones where he played on Gaudreau's wing towards the end of the season.

Now imagine a full season of that type of effort.

It was a night and day difference. To me at least.
I'd confidently say he'd outperform Ferland.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:12 AM   #12440
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I agree. Give Bennett some talent to play with and watch him come into his own.
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