[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It is fun to look back.

Looking back at my posts I wasn't a huge fan of the deal but mostly because I didn't like giving up Fox.

Since this post though I think two things became clear:

1) Dougie was not the best player in the deal, that appears to be Lindholm after half a season.

2) Fox probably wasn't going to sign here and Flames didn't want to be going into next offseason shopping him 1 year away from UFA.

It still hurts to give up Fox who has 20 points in 12 games at Harvard but signing Lindholm and Hanifin to reasonable deals and then seeing them perform great has made the trade look good.

You can say Hamilton may not even be the 4th best player in the deal. Thats how skewed Hamiltons play was when he was anchored to Gio's hip.

Funny how from a straight stats perspective the Flames got the 2 best players in the deal as of today or until Fox shows what he has in the NHL.

EDIT: Mega bonus points too once again to Trelviing for some elite asset management.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Did we though? I think the over payment for Hamonic is drastically overstated because that pick unexpectedly became a lottery ball pick (because the Flames did worse than expected, and the NHL lottery system has all non playoff teams with a chance in the lottery), which does have to be factored in, but is mentally making the deal seem worse for fans.

- Hamonic is a legit, top quality Top 4 D man in this league, maybe top 2 potential. I get that picks are important, but even with that first round being a 12th overall, and the two 2nd rounds to go with it, I think between those 3 picks you are hoping you get a player that can play in the Top 4 on D (or equivalent) to emerge at best.

Not saying it was a steal, but it seems like pretty fair trade value for a part as important as Hamonic to building a strong team. That's not even factoring in the fact that the Flames had young depth on D (Anderson, Kylington, Valimaki) so makes the picks easier to give, and the fact that given Hamonic's trade requests, he was going to end up on a direct, likely divisional rival if he didn't end up with us.

I didn't pan the trade or criticize Hamonic. I just think it was a steep price to pay for what Hamonic is. I like Hamonic, I like his salary, and he's part of a team that Treliving has put together that is working really well right now. I can accept the point of view that the trade was fair value. I agree that it would not have looked so bad had the Flames finished higher in the standings last year. But they didn't.

The point is that we scored a homerun landing Lindholm and Hanifin. The negative overreactions to that trade would not be on a par with people not liking the Hamonic trade.

[Flash Walken]

Hanifin was better than Dougie then, and he's better than Dougie now.

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Hanifin was better than Dougie then, and he's better than Dougie now.

Gio has a tendency to make his defensive partner look good. Case in point TJ Brodie.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Gio has a tendency to make his defensive partner look good. Case in point TJ Brodie.

Agree with the props to Gio, but I would be careful with the wording. I dont think Gio makes Brodie look good, I think Gio has the ability to bring out the best in his partner. Brodie is a world class skater with a top end back hand pass independent of Giordano. However with Gio he is able to exploit those skills to the fullest.

I think the beauty of Gio is not that he compensates for his partners weaknesses, its that he is able to work with another defenseman so that together they are better than the sum of their parts.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

They've performed at a much higher level than what their histories would have suggested.

And that’s why you should never use historical data as a predictor for young players. Young players often improve. Scouts and GMs try to project what young players will end up being. It was pretty obvious at the time of the trade that the best was yet to come for young 23 year old Lindholm and young 21 year old Hanifin.

For the same reason it’s highly likely we haven’t seen the best of Välimäki, Andersson, Kylington, Dubé, Bennett and Lazar.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Not equivalent. I like Hamonic but we overpaid for him.

Oh... did we?

[TopChed]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Did we though? I think the over payment for Hamonic is drastically overstated because that pick unexpectedly became a lottery ball pick (because the Flames did worse than expected, and the NHL lottery system has all non playoff teams with a chance in the lottery), which does have to be factored in, but is mentally making the deal seem worse for fans.

- Hamonic is a legit, top quality Top 4 D man in this league, maybe top 2 potential. I get that picks are important, but even with that first round being a 12th overall, and the two 2nd rounds to go with it, I think between those 3 picks you are hoping you get a player that can play in the Top 4 on D (or equivalent) to emerge at best.

Not saying it was a steal, but it seems like pretty fair trade value for a part as important as Hamonic to building a strong team. That's not even factoring in the fact that the Flames had young depth on D (Anderson, Kylington, Valimaki) so makes the picks easier to give, and the fact that given Hamonic's trade requests, he was going to end up on a direct, likely divisional rival if he didn't end up with us.

Ok, let's reel it in a bit here. Hamonic is nowhere near a top 2 d man in my mind. He's not even a great top second pairing guy. It's a bad trade that looks better because the team as a whole has gotten so much better.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Rittich started nine games in December, which represented a 2:1 ratio of the games. If he starts three out of four games for the duration of the season he will finish with 51. I believe this will be the high-water mark for him. Over the course of the past five years only three Vezina finalists have recorded fewer than 60 games—Rask played 58 in 2014, Dubnyk played 58 in 2015, and Rinne played 59 last year. I don't think Rittich will get close enough to that number to garner the requisite votes.

If you really delve into the numbers, Mike Smith was essentially the starter for the first half of December. So the 9 starts is actually pretty low. Personally, I don't see Smith getting a run like that again unless Rittich gets injured (knock on wood). In the final half of the season where the games are really important and the teams behind us are nipping at our heels, I foresee Peters playing his best goaltender which has been Rittich.

So, 26 of 38 isn't a ratio I see happening. It'll probably be closer to 30ish for Rittich. So ultimately, I think he gets close enough to the mid 50's to get in contention. There's also no set rules for voting either, so I don't see anyone taking away votes because he didn't hit a certain number of games. Voters will likely recognize that he was also the back up to start the season and played his way to a starting position.

He's probably still a long shot to be a Vezina finalist, but I can still see him getting votes. If he does though, that'll be a gigantic feather under his cap.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

^^^ TopChed

Completely disagree. Hamonic is completely capable of playing #2 in this league well, and is a VERY good 2nd pair guy. He's a part of the reason the team has gotten a whole lot better............... finding his game again and having a partner that fits with him. You are very much undervaluing what he brings to the table if you think he's a bad player benefiting from a good situation. Not too many 1st place teams can have a passenger on their 2nd pairing.................

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by TopChed

Ok, let's reel it in a bit here. Hamonic is nowhere near a top 2 d man in my mind. He's not even a great top second pairing guy. It's a bad trade that looks better because the team as a whole has gotten so much better.

Hamonic? He's a second pairing guy on any team, no question.

Do you mean Hanifin? He does have some defensive problems (mostly he's simply too high up in the offensive zone) but he's nowhere near as bad as Hamilton.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by TopChed

Ok, let's reel it in a bit here. Hamonic is nowhere near a top 2 d man in my mind. He's not even a great top second pairing guy. It's a bad trade that looks better because the team as a whole has gotten so much better.

Not even a great top second pairing guy? Say what?

Take one game and watch him exclusively when he’s on the ice like Brian Burke did. Isolate the player. He’s a friggin warrior.

I mean if you’re that down on him I guess you don’t put much value in shot blocking, the PK, being physically tough on players, poke checking etc.

Man oh man do some fans underrate some of the things less offensive defensemen do. Doesn’t show up on the score sheet but make no mistake about it, it contributes massively to winning and being hard to play against. They call them defenders for a reason and Hamonic is elite at defending in his own zone.

Did you like Regehr back in the day? While not being as vicious a hitter Hamonic has Regehr beat in skating, passing and shooting.

Hamonic would be a top pairing guy on some teams in the league as would Hanifin. Our top 4 is insane this year. Frankly our top 8 is as good as anybody’s IMO. Treliving truly has finally built an elite defense.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'd do that Hamonic deal every day and twice on Sunday.


While Gio is the rock of this defense, Hamonic is a tower of strength right now.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by 868904

Sorry, I should have put defenseman in parentheses to emphasize the defending part.

Honestly, I think he's a below average defender, which probably makes him overall, an average defenceman as his offense balances out the defence.

I mean, just look at the impact he had on Gio's game. If you want to shut Gio down, pair him with Hamilton!

I like to use Kris Russell as the bottom pair d-man comparable. Poor skater going both forwards and backwards, can't make outlet passes, has extreme difficultly clearing the d-zone when any sort of forward pressure happens, cannot hold onto the puck in the d-zone corners and often exhibits poor body and stick positioning.

Hamilton can clear the zone for the most part, he can pass, he can skate, but his body is often turned the wrong way and he has zero stick checking ability.

[UpperLoge]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'd do that Hamonic deal every day and twice on Sunday.


While Gio is the rock of this defense, Hamonic is a tower of strength right now.

Hamonic is a great guy to have at the moment while it appears it's time for the Flames to take a run.

Keeping that pick and having Noah Dobson in the hopper might come back to haunt, but that pain is a few years down the road yet, and sustained success now will make it hurt much less.

[Darth Tkachuk]

Originally Posted by TopChed

Ok, let's reel it in a bit here. Hamonic is nowhere near a top 2 d man in my mind. He's not even a great top second pairing guy. It's a bad trade that looks better because the team as a whole has gotten so much better.

Hamonics possession stats this year are very good (the best of his career), and hes at a +11 right now. Hes been nothing short of a beast this year. Get your eyes checked pal!

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Shazam

I like to use Kris Russell as the bottom pair d-man comparable. Poor skater going both forwards and backwards, can't make outlet passes, has extreme difficultly clearing the d-zone when any sort of forward pressure happens, cannot hold onto the puck in the d-zone corners and often exhibits poor body and stick positioning.

Hamilton can clear the zone for the most part, he can pass, he can skate, but his body is often turned the wrong way and he has zero stick checking ability.

Hamilton usually had two moves in the defensive zone (1) pass to Gio, or (2) fire the puck up the boards, where the opposing team usually got the puck. From what I can remember, he very seldom carried the puck out of our zone on his own. His reliance on Gio was quite obvious.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TopChed

Ok, let's reel it in a bit here. Hamonic is nowhere near a top 2 d man in my mind. He's not even a great top second pairing guy. It's a bad trade that looks better because the team as a whole has gotten so much better.

Some easy stats ...

Out of the top 124 played defensemen (top four)

Hamonic is ...

19th in CA/60
23rd in Shots against / 60
18th in Scoring chances against / 60
39th (and 1st for Cgy dmen) in high danger against / 60

This guy is the very definition of an elite shut down guy this year, and that would be first pairing on most teams.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Hamilton usually had two moves in the defensive zone (1) pass to Gio, or (2) fire the puck up the boards, where the opposing team usually got the puck.

Don't forget the 110 foot turn over up the middle. I.E the stretch pass to nowhere.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Not even a great top second pairing guy? Say what?

Take one game and watch him exclusively when he’s on the ice like Brian Burke did. Isolate the player. He’s a friggin warrior.

I mean if you’re that down on him I guess you don’t put much value in shot blocking, the PK, being physically tough on players, poke checking etc.

Man oh man do some fans underrate some of the things less offensive defensemen do. Doesn’t show up on the score sheet but make no mistake about it, it contributes massively to winning and being hard to play against. They call them defenders for a reason and Hamonic is elite at defending in his own zone.

Did you like Regehr back in the day? While not being as vicious a hitter Hamonic has Regehr beat in skating, passing and shooting.

Hamonic would be a top pairing guy on some teams in the league as would Hanifin. Our top 4 is insane this year. Frankly our top 8 is as good as anybody’s IMO. Treliving truly has finally built an elite defense.

All of that, plus he has to be in the high 90% of chances to clear a puck from the zone successfully, usually with a really nice pass to a forward or to a moving Hanifin. He may not have goals and assists, but he starts a lot of offensive plays.

There's no one I trust more in the D zone except maybe Gio, and even there it's really tight because Gio will try something too fancy every now and then.