2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Hes

Sign John Carlson for 7x7

I think Carlson's in line to be the next massively paid UFA (and in my opinion bust). He nearly doubled his points from the previous season to lead all defensemen in scoring (while playing the PP with Ovechkin). He's now playing 27 minutes a night on a playoff team that got to, at least, the conference final. Everything is working out perfectly for him to score in big time during this free agency. Especially as there's no real quality "plan b" for teams.

In fact, the second highest scoring UFA defenseman is his former teammate, Mike Green. Green's coming off a 6M/year contract that he signed after putting up 45 points on the same team that Carlson just put up 68 points on.

Burns signed an 8M/year contract...until he is 40. Carlson is 28, a 7 year contract for him will be entirely during 'prime years'.

If he simply chases money (and that may depend on if he gets the Cup or not), I think the hockey world will be surprised at the contract value.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Suggesting that because he missed games his ppg was lower than it would have been?

What?

Nope, I don't think that's what they were suggesting at all. I think they were pointing out his PPG was near tops in the league a few seasons ago even though he missed some games so his point totals would have been near tops in the league if he had stayed healthy.

In 2014-15 his 48 points in 61 games would have been a 64.5 point pace over 82 games. I think that's all the author was saying. That is near tops of the league type numbers.

In 2013-14 his 47 points in 64 points the year before would have been 60 points pace in 82 games.

So to summarize the last 3 years of Hartley's reign Giordano scored 0.73 PPG, 0.79 PPG, 0.68 PPG. Then under GG he scored 0.48 PPG and 0.46 PPG. Substantial nosedive in his offensive numbers.

So for some reason Giordano's PPG dived substantially under GG. Could be his PP usage, could be the fact the Flames goal scoring in general went down. Could be that he's less offensive with Hamilton as he feels he has to play more of a stay at home style. Could be his play falling off (I don't think so, as he looks as good IMO.) Could be a combination of things. Hard to say for sure.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Nope, I don't think that's what they were suggesting at all. I think they were pointing out his PPG was near tops in the league a few seasons ago even though he missed some games so his point totals would have been near tops in the league if he had stayed healthy.

In 2014-15 his 48 points in 61 games would have been a 64.5 point pace over 82 games. I think that's all the author was saying. That is near tops of the league type numbers.

In 2013-14 his 47 points in 64 points the year before would have been 60 points pace in 82 games.

So to summarize the last 3 years of Hartley's reign Giordano scored 0.73 PPG, 0.79 PPG, 0.68 PPG. Then under GG he scored 0.48 PPG and 0.46 PPG. Substantial nosedive in his offensive numbers.

So for some reason Giordano's PPG dived substantially under GG. Could be his PP usage, could be the fact the Flames goal scoring in general went down. Could be that he's less offensive with Hamilton as he feels he has to play more of a stay at home style. Could be his play falling off (I don't think so, as he looks as good IMO.) Could be a combination of things. Hard to say for sure.

I guess but it sure is awkwardly worded if so.


As well, Hartley didnt seem to care a whole lot about defensive acumen from his players so it was a bit of run and gun hockey. Not a recipe for long term success in the NHL.

I think Gio just finished his best all around year sans the year he was injured. The guy is a stud and IMO is a far better dman than anyone else on the team. Far better. Obviously age will catch up to him at some point but it sure didn't look like it was starting this last campaign.

[SuperMatt18]

Here is Giordano's point pace at Even Strength for 82 games over the last 5 years.

Even Strength: 14/15 feels like an outlier but still a drop off from about where you'd expect 30-35 ES points per year from Gio under Hartley, to ~25 ES points per year under Gulutzan.

13/14: 31
14/15: 44
15/16: 34
16/17: 22
17/18: 27

Power Play: His powerplay effectiveness dropped off a lot under Gulutzan too, but feel like a lot of that was his move from PP1 to PP2 - which has been a less effective group overall - even though he is getting a similar volume or PP ice time per game.

13/14: 26 (3:26)
14/15: 18 (3:10)
15/16: 19 (3:12)
16/17: 14 (2:35)
17/18: 10 (3:08)

So overall you got about a 15-20 point drop from Gio under Gulutzan vs under Hartley. With half of that coming from ES scoring, and half being from his PP utilization.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

This all just seems to be a repetition of Tanguay not smiling enough.

When the fan guys were talking about the whole Hamilton and Hamilton mess, it wasn't Warrener saying there was trouble in the dressing room over it, he was speculating that there could be trouble in the dressing room over it, but people make that leap when they hear what they think they want to hear.

Well when you have fans asking Loubardias (noted player defender) about Hamilton dogging it back after the Flames turn it over and Loubardias saying (paraphrased) I'm not gonna defend him, we saw a lot of that stuff too its somewhat telling.

I'm not sure there's character issues or the brother was any sort of problem. But his lack of compete in his own zone is a flaw and I doubt its going away. Hamilton has the size and strength to be a beast in his own zone but often plays soft and lazy. He's at his best with the puck on his stick in the offensive zone. Great at getting the puck towards the net. Hamilton could be one of the best defenders in the league if he was more committed in his own zone. You've got Giordano diving at pucks, sacrificing his body, hustling his butt off, playing physical and then you've got Hamilton letting guys walk around him, half assed getting back, not always pinning guys against the boards, etc.

This whole discussion started because there was talk that some Flames weren't committed enough to winning, that some of the Flames didn't hate losing enough. Hamilton's play in his own zone makes one wonder if he's committed to being the best he can be at both ends of the ice.

Is it a problem that needs to be purged? No, I don't think so. But is it a reason management may not view him as a core player or untouchable? It could be. I still don't think its reason enough to shop him. But it might be reason enough to listen to offers on him if some mega offers come in.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I guess but it sure is awkwardly worded if so.


As well, Hartley didnt seem to care a whole lot about defensive acumen from his players so it was a bit of run and gun hockey. Not a recipe for long term success in the NHL.

I think Gio just finished his best all around year sans the year he was injured. The guy is a stud and IMO is a far better dman than anyone else on the team. Far better. Obviously age will catch up to him at some point but it sure didn't look like it was starting this last campaign.

This Hartley 'not caring about defence' is getting old.

From 2013/14 - 2015/16, the Flames were 8th, 12th and 11th in SA.

Calgary was 8th under Gulutzan's first year, and now 10th this past season. Hardly a world of difference.

You must not have been anywhere close to the bench when Backlund didn't rotate into position to cover for a D-man that jumped in on the play, causing a turnover and an odd-man rush the other way.

Hartley REGULARLY chewed-out players that didn't play defence. That was the expectation with the system. Everyone has the green light to play offence, but everyone absolutely has to play hard the other way. If you didn't do it, he would sit your butt on the bench for a long time, or even scratch you. He wanted the entire team to play 2-way. He didn't have patience for 1 dimensional defencemen. He didn't have much patience for 1 dimensional forwards either.

It wasn't 'run and gun' hockey. Not even close. To say as much is not understanding the system he implemented at all, and then point to the results and say: "See! I am right". It was a rebuilding squad. It was a major defensive accomplishment and a big feather in his hat that he kept this team from getting lit-up every other night on the scoreboard as most rebuilding teams experience. If players didn't get back into position they were chewed-out on the bench.

Heck, I look at Gaudreau on the backcheck under Hartley and how good he was at stripping the puck away from players - I even called him Datsyuk-lite. Where was that player under Gulutzan?

I wanted a more aggressive defensive system, but that system as implemented worked for the team and it was not 'run and gun' hockey. It was a passive collapse not allowing home-plate and clogging the lanes as much as possible. Gulutzan's defensive system isn't much different actually, only they don't shot block nearly as much (though eliminating Bouma and Russell makes it seem drastically different in that area).

The thing with Gulutzan's system is that it wasn't that great defensively either. They seem to allow way too many 5-alarm chances. If you want to call Hartley's system 'run and gun' while implying that the Flames have played better defensively under Gulutzan, I just don't see it. I see a team that has much better personnel with a lot more experience, but underwhelming defensively.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I guess but it sure is awkwardly worded if so.


As well, Hartley didnt seem to care a whole lot about defensive acumen from his players so it was a bit of run and gun hockey. Not a recipe for long term success in the NHL.

I think Gio just finished his best all around year sans the year he was injured. The guy is a stud and IMO is a far better dman than anyone else on the team. Far better. Obviously age will catch up to him at some point but it sure didn't look like it was starting this last campaign.

Giordano's Points by Year with team finish in Goals Against in Brackets

2013-14 - 47pts / .73ppg (27th)
2014-15 - 48pts / .79ppg (16th)
2015-16 - 56pts / .68ppg (26th)
2016-17 - 39pts / .48ppg (15th)
2017-18 - 38pts / .46ppg (19th)

[bax]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This Hartley 'not caring about defence' is getting old.

From 2013/14 - 2015/16, the Flames were 8th, 12th and 11th in SA.

Calgary was 8th under Gulutzan's first year, and now 10th this past season. Hardly a world of difference.

You must not have been anywhere close to the bench when Backlund didn't rotate into position to cover for a D-man that jumped in on the play, causing a turnover and an odd-man rush the other way.

Hartley REGULARLY chewed-out players that didn't play defence. That was the expectation with the system. Everyone has the green light to play offence, but everyone absolutely has to play hard the other way. If you didn't do it, he would sit your butt on the bench for a long time, or even scratch you. He wanted the entire team to play 2-way. He didn't have patience for 1 dimensional defencemen. He didn't have much patience for 1 dimensional forwards either.

It wasn't 'run and gun' hockey. Not even close. To say as much is not understanding the system he implemented at all, and then point to the results and say: "See! I am right". It was a rebuilding squad. It was a major defensive accomplishment and a big feather in his hat that he kept this team from getting lit-up every other night on the scoreboard as most rebuilding teams experience. If players didn't get back into position they were chewed-out on the bench.

Heck, I look at Gaudreau on the backcheck under Hartley and how good he was at stripping the puck away from players - I even called him Datsyuk-lite. Where was that player under Gulutzan?

I wanted a more aggressive defensive system, but that system as implemented worked for the team and it was not 'run and gun' hockey. It was a passive collapse not allowing home-plate and clogging the lanes as much as possible. Gulutzan's defensive system isn't much different actually, only they don't shot block nearly as much (though eliminating Bouma and Russell makes it seem drastically different in that area).

The thing with Gulutzan's system is that it wasn't that great defensively either. They seem to allow way too many 5-alarm chances. If you want to call Hartley's system 'run and gun' while implying that the Flames have played better defensively under Gulutzan, I just don't see it. I see a team that has much better personnel with a lot more experience, but underwhelming defensively.

Using shots against isn’t really a great measure of defensive acumen when looking at Hartley’s Flames. I would like to see shot attempts against.

Those teams routinely chased games and on average held the puck less then their opponent because their defensive zone system was basically “collapse in front of the net while the other team controls the puck and try to block shots like Lance Bouma and Kris Russell”.

This isn’t necessarily a bad thing because I agree that Hartley didn’t have the best teams on paper. This was a system that was designed for an average group of players so I can understand the logic.

Ideally, a good team will have the puck a lot more and won’t have to play like that. As Kent Wilson said “blocking shots is like killing rats. Doing it is preferable to not, but if you’re doing it all the time it suggests you have bigger problems”.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by bax

Using shots against isn’t really a great measure of defensive acumen when looking at Hartley’s Flames. I would like to see shot attempts against.

Those teams routinely chased games and on average held the puck less then their opponent because their defensive zone system was basically “collapse in front of the net while the other team controls the puck and try to block shots like Lance Bouma and Kris Russell”.

This isn’t necessarily a bad thing because I agree that Hartley didn’t have the best teams on paper. This was a system that was designed for an average group of players so I can understand the logic.

Ideally, a good team will have the puck a lot more and won’t have to play like that. As Kent Wilson said “blocking shots is like killing rats. Doing it is preferable to not, but if you’re doing it all the time it suggests you have bigger problems”.

He knows that.

Shot attempts against
2013-14: 5th worst
2014-15: 2nd worst
2015-16: 4th worst
2016-17: 5th BEST
2017-18: 7th BEST

The flames were the 4th best team in the league over the last 2 years in suppressing 5-5 shots. The teams ahead of them over that period are:

Boston
LA
St.Louis

In the two seasons preceding Gulutzan, the Flames were the 3rd WORST in the league at 5-5 shot attempts against. The only teams worse than Calgary were Buffalo and Colorado.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This Hartley 'not caring about defence' is getting old.

From 2013/14 - 2015/16, the Flames were 8th, 12th and 11th in SA.

Calgary was 8th under Gulutzan's first year, and now 10th this past season. Hardly a world of difference.

You must not have been anywhere close to the bench when Backlund didn't rotate into position to cover for a D-man that jumped in on the play, causing a turnover and an odd-man rush the other way.

Hartley REGULARLY chewed-out players that didn't play defence. That was the expectation with the system. Everyone has the green light to play offence, but everyone absolutely has to play hard the other way. If you didn't do it, he would sit your butt on the bench for a long time, or even scratch you. He wanted the entire team to play 2-way. He didn't have patience for 1 dimensional defencemen. He didn't have much patience for 1 dimensional forwards either.

It wasn't 'run and gun' hockey. Not even close. To say as much is not understanding the system he implemented at all, and then point to the results and say: "See! I am right". It was a rebuilding squad. It was a major defensive accomplishment and a big feather in his hat that he kept this team from getting lit-up every other night on the scoreboard as most rebuilding teams experience. If players didn't get back into position they were chewed-out on the bench.

Heck, I look at Gaudreau on the backcheck under Hartley and how good he was at stripping the puck away from players - I even called him Datsyuk-lite. Where was that player under Gulutzan?

I wanted a more aggressive defensive system, but that system as implemented worked for the team and it was not 'run and gun' hockey. It was a passive collapse not allowing home-plate and clogging the lanes as much as possible. Gulutzan's defensive system isn't much different actually, only they don't shot block nearly as much (though eliminating Bouma and Russell makes it seem drastically different in that area).

The thing with Gulutzan's system is that it wasn't that great defensively either. They seem to allow way too many 5-alarm chances. If you want to call Hartley's system 'run and gun' while implying that the Flames have played better defensively under Gulutzan, I just don't see it. I see a team that has much better personnel with a lot more experience, but underwhelming defensively.

Oh I understood Hartleys sytem just fine thanks.

Its why he is the head coach of Latvia right now.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Giordano's Points by Year with team finish in Goals Against in Brackets

2013-14 - 47pts / .73ppg (27th)
2014-15 - 48pts / .79ppg (16th)
2015-16 - 56pts / .68ppg (26th)
2016-17 - 39pts / .48ppg (15th)
2017-18 - 38pts / .46ppg (19th)

Thats great work.

What does it have to do with what i said though?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Thats great work.

What does it have to do with what i said though?

Just that points by Giordano doesn't effectively translate to team success. He socres 38 and they finish 19th, he scores 56, they finish 26th.

The goal isn't about getting giordano more points, it's about getting the team more wins. Frankly, I think Giordano is a much better player with 11 goals and a +22 than he is with 21 goals and a -5.

If that's the tradeoff, I choose him in a defensive role every time.

[transplant99]

Yeah I agree...i dont worry about his points...they will come. I dont know for sure but i suspect his PP time was way down from his best years as well.

But yeah, my point is i think he is a more complete player than he has ever been and showed o signs of slowing down this past year.

Hopefully that continues for at least 2 or 3 more.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If I'm Treliving I let the discussion go where it goes.

He can trade Andersson for an equivalent NHL ready winger ready to step in.
He can trade Brodie for a second line right wing.
He can trade Stone for draft picks.
He can trade Hamilton if he gets the package he likes.
He can entertain Giordano if someone steps up and he can't turn it down.

Approach every discussion as saying "we think we have between seven and ten NHL ready defenseman and we're looking to make a move to improve our balance" and see what other GMs say.

.

What sort of draft pick(s) for Stone? His 3.5 for 2 more years is a UFA overpayment and his value did not go up since he signed. I would guess that if the Flames want more than a 4th for him they would retain salary.

What sort of top-6 forward for Brodie.? ... Pearrault , Louis Eriksson, Richard Panik, Charlie Coyle, Donskoi? I don't see him bringing in someone who is important in other teams future plans.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Just that points by Giordano doesn't effectively translate to team success. He socres 38 and they finish 19th, he scores 56, they finish 26th.

The goal isn't about getting giordano more points, it's about getting the team more wins. Frankly, I think Giordano is a much better player with 11 goals and a +22 than he is with 21 goals and a -5.

If that's the tradeoff, I choose him in a defensive role every time.

I think you're drawing causations when there are none or few. Elliott/Johnson, and Smith/Rittich gave us better goaltending than 2016 Hiller or 2014 Berra.

Giordano's offensive output can be more realistically be compared to offense than it can to defense. Maybe there were some risks taken with deep pinches but a lot of the time the goals scored against were due to other reasons - young forwards missing assignments or goaltenders whiffing on easy saves.



On the other hand, once we added Gaudreau, and Giordano/Brodie were still allowed to wheel - we were not a team that struggled to score, outside of a select few games where the Blues would trap us in the neutral zone and Hartley had no answers. That's not to say that the style we played under Hartley was necessarily the "correct" style but there are currently GOOD teams that get a lot more from their defensemen than we have the last two years. The Nashville Predators, the Vegas Golden Knights, and the Tampa Bay Lighting are three teams with highly active defense cores, I bet if you dug into the stats they are getting far more offense from the blue line, and yet despite that that's three of the four teams in the CF. Maybe even Washington's up there too, IDK.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think you're drawing causations when there are none or few. Elliott/Johnson, and Smith/Rittich gave us better goaltending than 2016 Hiller or 2014 Berra.

Giordano's offensive output can be more realistically be compared to offense than it can to defense. Maybe there were some risks taken with deep pinches but a lot of the time the goals scored against were due to other reasons - young forwards missing assignments or goaltenders whiffing on easy saves.



On the other hand, once we added Gaudreau, and Giordano/Brodie were still allowed to wheel - we were not a team that struggled to score, outside of a select few games where the Blues would trap us in the neutral zone and Hartley had no answers. That's not to say that the style we played under Hartley was necessarily the "correct" style but there are currently GOOD teams that get a lot more from their defensemen than we have the last two years. The Nashville Predators, the Vegas Golden Knights, and the Tampa Bay Lighting are three teams with highly active defense cores, I bet if you dug into the stats they are getting far more offense from the blue line, and yet despite that that's three of the four teams in the CF. Maybe even Washington's up there too, IDK.

Hartley 2013-2016:

Shot Attempts for: 23rd
5-5 Goals for: 18th
5-4 Goals For: 15th
5-3 Goals For: 24th

Gulutzan 2016-2018
Shot Attempts For: 10th
5-5 Goals For: 21st
5-4 Goals For: 14th
5-3 Goals For: 7th

Most of that I think is a personnel issue, but it's not like Gulutuzan was handed an offensive juggernaut of a roster. If you don't think a team that wasn't higher than 15th in any offensive category didn't struggle to score, I don't know what to tell you.

Gulutzan's teams were as good offensively and miles better defensively.

The Flames problems in terms of offense come down to the amount of skill in the lineup.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Hartley 2013-2016:

Shot Attempts for: 23rd
5-5 Goals for: 18th
5-4 Goals For: 15th
5-3 Goals For: 24th

Gulutzan 2016-2018
Shot Attempts For: 10th
5-5 Goals For: 21st
5-4 Goals For: 14th
5-3 Goals For: 7th

Most of that I think is a personnel issue, but it's not like Gulutuzan was handed an offensive juggernaut of a roster. If you don't think a team that wasn't higher than 15th in any offensive category didn't struggle to score, I don't know what to tell you.

Gulutzan's teams were as good offensively and miles better defensively.

The Flames problems in terms of offense come down to the amount of skill in the lineup.

How about we compare years where the core personnel were actually there? I mean throwing 2013 in there seems a bit disingenuous as Gaudreau was still in junior and Monahan was a 19 year old whom, despite some success, by most accounts should have been sent back to Junior..Also your numbers appear appear manipulated even for the Gulutzan. Here's what I have:


Hartley 2014-2016:
5-5 Goals for: 10th
5-4 Goals For: T-10th (2 teams)
5-3 Goals For: T-18th (8 teams)

Gulutzan 2016-2018
5-5 Goals For: 23rd (2 teams)
5-4 Goals For: 14th
5-3 Goals For: T-7th (5 teams)

Not only that, but your use of 5 on 3 scoring is baffling. We're talking a range of goals from 1 to 9 over a two year span due to how rare 5 on 3s actually are. It makes more sense to have an all-encompassing PP stat:

Hartley 2014-2016
PP Goals For: T-15th (2 Teams)

Gulutzan 2016-2018
PP Goals For: T-16th (2 Teams)

Which basically means the thing to compare is 5 on 5 scoring. Where again, as soon as we added Gaudreau, we were 10th in 5v5 goals over a two year period, and then fell to 23rd over Gulutzan's tenure. Gulutzan was handed a team that could score. Saying he wasn't is lying through your teeth. Additionally, this was also a team that was strong at 4 on 4 and that also fell off the map:

Hartley 2014-2016
4v4 Goals For: T-4th (2 Teams)

Gulutzan 2016-2018
4v4 Goals For: T-14th (2 Teams)

This is a core that has PROVEN it can score. Backlund, Frolik, Bennett, Giordano, and Brodie are all solid-to-strong offensive players coming off poor offensive seasons under a coach who simply hated the thought of offense unless it came from players who are going to get theirs regardless with elite shooting (Tkachuk / Monahan / Hamilton). Even Gaudreau faded without Monahan - something that didn't happen before Gulutzan.

[DeluxeMoustache]

In light of the gap between counting stats and team success, it is disappointing that we are discussing shots for as an indicator of offensive success.

Hartley’s team scored often by quick transitions creating outnumbered situations, Gulutzan tried to move as a 5 man unit and was not effective enough in subsequently creating outnumbered situations as the other team was allowed time to get set to defend.

We all watched it, saw the Flames rack up the shots and not looking dangerous.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

How about we compare years where the core personnel were actually there? I mean throwing 2013 in there seems a bit disingenuous as Gaudreau was still in junior. Also your numbers appear appear manipulated even for the Gulutzan. Here's what I have:



Hartley 2014-2016:
5-5 Goals for: 10th
5-4 Goals For: T-10th (2 teams)
5-3 Goals For: T-18th (8 teams)

Gulutzan 2016-2018
5-5 Goals For: 23rd (2 teams)
5-4 Goals For: 14th
5-3 Goals For: T-7th (5 teams)

Not only that, but your use of 5 on 3 scoring is baffling. We're talking a range of goals from 1 to 9 over a two year span. It makes more sense to have an all-encompassing PP stat:

Hartley 2014-2016
PP Goals For: T-15th (2 Teams)

Gulutzan 2016-2018
PP Goals For: T-16th (2 Teams)

Which basically means the thing to compare is 5 on 5 scoring. Where again, as soon as we added Gaudreau, we were 10th in 5v5 goals over a two year period, and then fell to 23rd over Gulutzan's tenure.

You're right, including 5-3 goals is meaningless, it's not a major part of my argument. It's an offensive goal scoring category so i included it. The real stats that matter are shot attempts against.

I agree the 2014-15 parameter is a better representation. Wasn't trying to 'get one over' by including 2013, but the story isn't disimilar and is representative of Hartley's systematic approach to coaching.

I'm not digging a grave on a hill to die on here about offensive stats, as I have always maintained the flames are lacking in offensive skill whether coached by hartley or gulutzan. The fact is, to get to 10th in goals for 5-5, they had to be 7th worst in Goals Against 5-5 which is where Hartley's team's found themselves in his final 2 years. In GG's 2 years, the team was 17th in 5-5 goals against. Goaltending, sure, sure. Hiller and Ramo ran a .905 and a .910 save percentage in hartley's final 2 years, Smith, Johnson, Elliot ran .916, .910, .909. The reason goals against were down for Calgary under GG as compared to Hartley wasn't save percentage, it was 5-5 shot attempts allowed, swinging from bottom 5 to top 5 in a single season of a coaching change.

The point is that Hartley's system of play sacrificed defense (as illustrated by shot attempts against) for offense. Gulutzan's offensive numbers are very much in line with a team that played a more sound defensive game. You can blame it on goaltending if you want but to me it's no surprise that the third or 4th worst team in the league at suppressing 5-5 shots also happened to allow the 7th most goals 5-5.

I don't think either one of them was the 'right' coach because both coaches had lackluster to dismal groups of talents to coach, but I think given basically parameter for isolating the stats, you'll see hartley's teams were worse defensively and roughly on par offensively.

The team doesn't score enough because they don't have enough scorers. The team scored more under Hartley because he used his defenders to supply the offense the forwards weren't capable of producing. Gulutzan used his defenders to limit the amount of offense against, but still didn't have enough forwards capable of producing.

I don't think it's possible to coach your way to more goals for without sacrificing goals against, and on the right roster that's a tradeoff you can make. The Penguins for example allowed 8 more goals than Calgary did this year, but that isn't a problem because they scored 54 more than the Flames.

The Flames had 3 defenders score 30+ points. The penguins had 2. The caps had 2 (honourable mention 29 points niskanen). The Knights had 2 (honourable mention theodore 29 points). Tampa had 2.

When I last looked, the Flames are one of the few teams in the league that have more than one defender in the top 5/6 for PP minutes, and one of a few that have 3 defenders in the top 10 for PP minutes. In Dallas for instance or Boston for example, they have a defender leading the team in PP minutes and then don't have another defender in the top 10 until 7 or 8th in minutes. The Flames have 3 defenders getting top PP minutes, and the underlying reason is they don't have more than one good PP line of forwards to throw out there.

I think the Flames are getting enough offensive contribution from the backend, it's just that they are woeful when it comes to forward scoring depth. Hartley leveraged this to sacrifice defense to generate more offense, but the best teams in the league aren't doing this. Nashville has the best group of defenders in the league, 4 that scored more than 30 points, but are in tough against a team with with 2x 30+ point defenders, and lost out last year in the cup final in part because they lacked scoring punch up front.

It's the same story with the Power Play, it bleeds through every game, every situation. The Flames have to play 3 defenders prominently on the PP, not because they want to, but because they have to in order to generate offense.

[dino7c]

Bottom line is you either trade Hamilton for a 70-80+ point forward or keep him.

Any other option makes the team worse next season and I can promise you that is not the goal of a GM in Tre's position.