[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I'm not fearful of the Flames moving and not going to sound any alarm bells. Calgary is a great market for the NHL.

Could the Flames ever leave though? Of course they could. Go back and look at the Forbes valuation of NHL franchises and arena deals are a key driver of high value. That's why the Oilers are a top 10 valued franchise.

The NFL's Houston Oilers left town and Houston is the heart of football country. How did that happen?
A wingnut owner who fell in love with another market and the promises they were giving him.
Failed attempts to build a new stadium in Houston, in a very public battle with local politicians that played out in the media.
A city that was struggling economically after going through an oil price collapse and they had recently funded improvements to the existing stadium.
A fan base that ultimately turned their back on the owner and stopped going to games.
A league that didn't really get involved and allowed the owner to do what he wanted.

You could see some of that happening here but the situations are quite different. The Flames remain very popular in Calgary.

I don't see much in common at all. Different league, 40-ish years ago? If you want to find a comparable, look up the road. A lot more in common there.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I encourage anyone who is fearful or has boughten into the threat of the Flames leaving Calgary read this article by Kent Wilson written a few years back in response to Eric Francis’s flimsy scare tactic puff piece/shill article that had preceded Wilson’s by a week or so. Although it is a few years old, it still applies all the same:

https://theathletic.com/182400/2017/...oking-houston/

lol

The bottom line is, who wants it more?

The answer is Houston, which is where my money says the Flames will be within the next three years.

As sad as that is for Canadian hockey fans to hear.

Written in Dec 2017.

Honestly people - be savvy media consumers. The owners want you to blame the mayor for this. The mayor wants you to blame the owners for this. Your local newspapers are about as far in the O&G pockets as can be - and who happens to own the Flames. The opinion section of those papers will have tons of stories about the mayor being terrible because they are carrying water for the Flames owners.

On the flip side - the mayor/city will look to friendly media to get their side out.

Francis is now working for Sportsnet and not Postmedia - do you think he'll write a similar piece now?

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Where is the incentive for the Flames to even stick around? "Her Worship" is dreaming in technicolor if she thinks CSEC is going to continue being nothing more than a tenant to the City. She's also high if she thinks the City is going to draw in a partner like AEG without giving up massive real estate holdings around the arena site for AEG's future development benefit. It is also questionable whether AEG would be allowed to play in the Calgary space since they have an ownership component of the LA Kings and the NHL would see that as a conflict of interest. The City needs to tread carefully here. This ownership group has provided some incredible stability to the sports entertainment scene in Calgary, and if life is made difficult for the Flames, CSEC may just pull the plug on it all.

Man, you’re really missing the point on this idea. The whole idea is to get a proper developer to commit to building something in the area. If that means the city’s contribution is mostly land, so be it. A group like AEG is very experienced at building arena districts. And your purported “conflict of interest” makes no sense since they also built T-Mobile with the largest ownership stake in the arena. They also built the Sprint Center in KC, which you previously suggested as a relocation target.

A party like AEG is obviously interested in the anchor tenant, but more interested in the other 300+ days a year where they can make money from concerts and such plus leasing and sales of everything else in that area.

Now, CSEC has a decision to make: be a part of the process albeit at a reduced profit model because a third party is involved, step up with more investment, or try to leave. But I don’t see how that’s going to work in their favour if the city has a commitment to build a suitable arena for them to play in. What’s their argument going to be? We have to move because this new state of the art building wasn’t built exactly to OUR specifications, despite it being built by someone who has more experience building arenas?

This is so much more than hockey, but please, continue to call a mayor actually trying other options an idiot because she’s not bending over for CSEC and asking for more punishment.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

lol



Written in Dec 2017.

Honestly people - be savvy media consumers. The owners want you to blame the mayor for this. The mayor wants you to blame the owners for this. Your local newspapers are about as far in the O&G pockets as can be - and who happens to own the Flames. The opinion section of those papers will have tons of stories about the mayor being terrible because they are carrying water for the Flames owners.

On the flip side - the mayor/city will look to friendly media to get their side out.

Francis is now working for Sportsnet and not Postmedia - do you think he'll write a similar piece now?

All in the name of a balanced perspective. Pretty easy to get swept up in all the fear mongering going around, which isn't even coming from the Flames strangely enough.

I'm disappointed, albeit not shocked, in both sides. This is clearly a moment where both sides can renegotiate. Should go without saying but things have changed immensely since 2019 when the deal was struck. There is far too much riding on this for both parties for this to collapse. The City already has shovels in the ground on several ancillary projects and the event centre is integral part of a much larger plan that has been in the works for a decade, probably more. I would go out on a limb and say the Flames don't want to leave and the City does not want them to leave.

Even if the Flames wanted to leave the NHL board of governors would have to agreed to it. Do people really think the Flames are going to leave to go play in Houston, for example? Where would the Flames rank in the sports landscape in Houston? Here's my guess:

-NFL/Texans
-Astros
-Rockets
-College Football
-Highschool Football / NHL

Seems like a pretty big roll of the dice to me. Lots to do in Houston and I would also say Hockey is not a part of the cultural fabric. Not to the extent that is in Calgary/Canada. Further, if Canada does lose an NHL team, what does that mean for Rogers and the NHL? I think I heard the Canadian teams provide 35% of all NHL revenue. Think the BOG is looking to see one of those franchises move to a location with no NHL history unless they go to Hartford, KC, or Cleveland?

What would the relocation fee be compared to expansion? The NHL has fought tooth and nail to keep the Coyotes in Arizona for decades, but they are just going to willfully pull a franchise out of one of the more stable markets in the league? I wouldn't be surprised if Houston does get a team but I think the NHL's preference will be to have an ownership group fork up the, what, $800M in expansion fees. They won't get that from a relocation.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Locke

I dont know about arrogance and its a little soon to start with the 'incompetence' label. But considering some of what she has done to start her tenure she does seem a little out of touch.

She did start off by declaring a Climate Emergency and then attempting to meddle in Quebec's affairs and now this so the beginning of her mandate has thus far been kind of all over the place.

I think they are all related.

It’s all about symbols and signalling. Pro sports and hockey aren’t exactly known for inclusion. The flames owners are pale and stale conservative types who make their money in oil and gas. And the flames seem pretty happy to live up to the stereotypes.

The only symbol of any value to people who run the city is opposing the flames owners, not working with them.

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1479485765155311622

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TOfan

All in the name of a balanced perspective. Pretty easy to get swept up in all the fear mongering going around, which isn't even coming from the Flames strangely enough.

I'm disappointed, albeit not shocked, in both sides. This is clearly a moment where both sides can renegotiate. Should go without saying but things have changed immensely since 2019 when the deal was struck. There is far too much riding on this for both parties for this to collapse. The City already has shovels in the ground on several ancillary projects and the event centre is integral part of a much larger plan that has been in the works for a decade, probably more. I would go out on a limb and say the Flames don't want to leave and the City does not want them to leave.

Even if the Flames wanted to leave the NHL board of governors would have to agreed to it. Do people really think the Flames are going to leave to go play in Houston, for example? Where would the Flames rank in the sports landscape in Houston? Here's my guess:

-NFL/Texans
-Astros
-Rockets
-College Football
-Highschool Football / NHL

Seems like a pretty big roll of the dice to me. Lots to do in Houston and I would also say Hockey is not a part of the cultural fabric. Not to the extent that is in Calgary/Canada. Further, if Canada does lose an NHL team, what does that mean for Rogers and the NHL? I think I heard the Canadian teams provide 35% of all NHL revenue. Think the BOG is looking to see one of those franchises move to a location with no NHL history unless they go to Hartford, KC, or Cleveland?

What would the relocation fee be compared to expansion? The NHL has fought tooth and nail to keep the Coyotes in Arizona for decades, but they are just going to willfully pull a franchise out of one of the more stable markets in the league? I wouldn't be surprised if Houston does get a team but I think the NHL's preference will be to have an ownership group fork up the, what, $800M in expansion fees. They won't get that from a relocation.

I don't get the infatuation with discussing Houston as a destination for the Flames. I have never once heard anything from the Flames indicating they are for sale.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Yoho

https://twitter.com/user/status/1479485765155311622

LOL thanks I needed some comedy this Friday morning. Hilarious read!

[Muta]

Why even build a new arena? Feels like the Flames barely play here anymore. Save the arena money, have them play only road games! Wouldn't even notice.

[Bunk]

Gondek is from Winnipeg and literally worked for the Jets in the 90s. I don't think she needs the sanctimonious lecture.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don't get the infatuation with discussing Houston as a destination for the Flames. I have never once heard anything from the Flames indicating they are for sale.

I am at a loss to understand this argument too. So, the Flames wouldn’t want to be a tenant in an arena that the City built on it’s own or with other partners, but they would relocate somewhere and be tenants in Quebec/Hamilton/Houston’s arena? How would that make sense?

[powderjunkie]

I think the most likely 'other partner' would be a joint venture between the Stampede and an experienced development group in the vein of AEG.

It would actually make the most sense for a tripartite of CSEC, CoC, and CS (I heard those audible groans).

Since the Great Schism in the early 90s (ie. the "bad blood" that everyone thinks exists) everyone involved on the Stampede side has turned over...Murray is the only common denominator remaining (and maybe Libby Raines - VP of building Ops, who is presumably nearing retirement).

Instead of squabbling over silly stuff like parking, they could focus on growing the pie and streamlining operations. They've managed to duplicate departments for:
- parking
- concessions & general food service
- custodial
- security
- guest service (ushers, etc.)
- administrative costs related to the above

Both orgs have been killed by Covid. Adapt or die. Stampede actually has a decent (albeit imperfect) track record with major projects. Neither org has the critical mass to be "world-class" on a year-round basis, but together they would.

Stampede is a not-for-profit. They are not without their warts, but ultimately the money is staying in the community.

Further pipe dream:

Spoiler!

Lastly, expanding the Stampede Grandstand to host the Stamps would deliver even more efficiencies and revenue potential for each org. Multi-purpose stadiums generally aren't great, but the CFL definitely does not warrant anything purpose built.

Imagine an adaptable design that could work for football, concerts, rodeo, soccer, baseball, X Games/Red Bull events, amateur sports (winter&summer) and maybe even auto racing.

A main concourse hub opposing the current grandstand including some more premium venues/boxes and some permanent seating, but other bleachers could be more re-configurable.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I'm not fearful of the Flames moving and not going to sound any alarm bells. Calgary is a great market for the NHL.

Could the Flames ever leave though? Of course they could. Go back and look at the Forbes valuation of NHL franchises and arena deals are a key driver of high value. That's why the Oilers are a top 10 valued franchise.

The NFL's Houston Oilers left town and Houston is the heart of football country. How did that happen?
A wingnut owner who fell in love with another market and the promises they were giving him.
Failed attempts to build a new stadium in Houston, in a very public battle with local politicians that played out in the media.
A city that was struggling economically after going through an oil price collapse and they had recently funded improvements to the existing stadium.
A fan base that ultimately turned their back on the owner and stopped going to games.
A league that didn't really get involved and allowed the owner to do what he wanted.

You could see some of that happening here but the situations are quite different. The Flames remain very popular in Calgary.

I think this absolutely could happen if we had an NFL team. It seems the NHL treats their cities better than the NFL does. St. Louis Rams being another example.

I just can't see the NHL act like the NFL does. They haven't ever previously.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I am at a loss to understand this argument too. So, the Flames wouldn’t want to be a tenant in an arena that the City built on it’s own or with other partners, but they would relocate somewhere and be tenants in Quebec/Hamilton/Houston’s arena? How would that make sense?

Pretty sure if they moved it would be as a sale, not with present ownership. I know they haven’t threatened it yet in this go ‘round, but that’s probably because they aren’t at that stage in the pressure yet. And it didn’t go over too well last time.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Pretty sure if they moved it would be as a sale, not with present ownership. I know they haven’t threatened it yet in this go ‘round, but that’s probably because they aren’t at that stage in the pressure yet. And it didn’t go over too well last time.

Yeah, I don't think there is an imminent threat, but if the Dome runs through its lifespan without a new deal in place, it is almost a certainty that the team would leave. No viable arena means no team, end of story. It doesn't matter if the market is viable if the team doesn't have an arena up to modern standards to play in.

The Flames have 11 years left on the lease which brings it right up until that point, so there is still time to work it out, but the goal line is also definitely in sight.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Yoho

https://twitter.com/user/status/1479485765155311622

Hey.. it's that Eric Francis article from 2017 updated for 2022 by post media

[Locke]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Yeah, I don't think there is an imminent threat, but if the Dome runs through its lifespan without a new deal in place, it is almost a certainty that the team would leave. No viable arena means no team, end of story. It doesn't matter if the market is viable if the team doesn't have an arena up to modern standards to play in.

The Flames have 11 years left on the lease which brings it right up until that point, so there is still time to work it out, but the goal line is also definitely in sight.

You know...Gondek doesnt have the same degree of faith from Calgary voters that Nenshi had...if the Flames ran a puppet Mayor in the next election it might actually work...

Then we would really have to embrace our overlords...maybe Edwards would just run himself?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Pretty sure if they moved it would be as a sale, not with present ownership. I know they haven’t threatened it yet in this go ‘round, but that’s probably because they aren’t at that stage in the pressure yet. And it didn’t go over too well last time.

And as we all know, priority 1 on a sale would be an owner looking to keep the team local. It is harder to imagine someone willing to front the cash for both the team and their share of the arena (unless maybe it is someone whose core business is actually real estate development, like the Pattison Group...who previously owned the Calgary Cowboys in the WHA).

It is more plausible that other billionaires could be interested in joining the NHL club, and don't mind doing so under a more traditional fair-market-value tenancy situation.


There is nothing to suggest Murray has any interest in selling or relocating though. I would continue to call his implied bluff.

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Some were suggesting Her Worship wanted to go it alone without the Flames. Doesn’t seem so.



https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/co...il-to-press-on

But does seem interested in a different structure, with perhaps additional partners involved.

I think some have also suggested that if only the City stepped into the solar panels and sidewalk costs the old deal would go ahead. But that is $10m of an apparent $80+m cost problem for the Flames under the July amended agreement.

Will be interested to see where this goes.

To me this article reeked of desperation. Specially when she has to call out her number 1 adviser for speaking on her behalf and blaming Nenshi for this current mess.
Whichever way you lean politically, it's hard not to see what a disaster this first quarter has been for the new mayor.

Now that she's talking about how other parties are so interested in making a "real entertainment district" happen I'm really curious to see what they can come up with. I just hope it happens before more money has to be spent on maintaining the Saddledome.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Gondek is from Winnipeg and literally worked for the Jets in the 90s. I don't think she needs the sanctimonious lecture.

She decided to negotiate in public by taking this to twitter, so no surprise Murray has his shill reporters delivering his message publicly in response.