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View Poll Results: What will happen to Brad Treliving after the end of the season?
He should and will be fired 119 19.13%
He should be fired, but will continue as the Flames GM 208 33.44%
He should not and will not be fired 128 20.58%
He should not but will be fired 13 2.09%
Unsure if he should be, but he will be fired 27 4.34%
Unsure if he should be, but he will not be fired 127 20.42%
Voters: 622. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-03-2021, 10:51 PM   #3041
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Does Dube not figure into the equation? Heís had time with the second line as well, but because it wasnít generating much, Sutter started moving around bodies.

Mangiapane is not an upgrade over Gaudreau, but heís not chopped liver either. He has had a very good season and in terms of even strength play, he might be the top 5 on 5 winger for his role. For a center of Monahanís ilk, salary and history of production, I expected him to help elevate the second line now that heís not facing top shut down pairings. But itís been the big disappointment down the stretch in my opinion, probably the worst performing line for the role theyíre asked to play which is why Iím being critical. Thereís been too many one goal games where this line couldíve made an impact and nothing. Outside of a couple games, basically crickets.

Salary wise, I suppose I expected more from someone who at the time, was paid roughly the same as Barkov, Mackinnon and Scheifele. Those 3 have improved over time and developed into elite, franchise centers whereas Monahan has stayed stagnant and has actually regressed. Itís a big reason why this team has regressed as well. There was talk in the Sam Bennett thread about how his failure to launch really hurt this teamís ability to hit that next level, well Monahan in my opinion isnít that far behind at this point. The contract value isnít great and itís being compounded by Sam Bennettís outstanding start in Florida.
Dube was moved after 2 games. And in those 2 games I thought they looked good. Ritchie has played what, now, 5?

Salary wise, you are comparing 3 guys who were signed to fantastic deals - IMO they are bargains as opposed to Monahan being a super bad contract. And Scheifele and Mackinnon did so before the huge rise in RFA contracts. Have a look at most of the other centres at that level of salary. The 2 years before Scheifele signed he scored 49 and 61 points. Pretty good but the next year he exploded. Mackinnon signed the same year after 51 points. It took him 2 years before he skyrocketed. Monahan signed a similar contract, with similar points at a similar time. The difference is they were bargains. Monahan is slightly below value, if at all, when you compare him with Stastny, Schenn, Couture, RyJo, Stepan, Duchene etc.

A couple years later and Mackinnon and Scheifele would be making Aho/Draisaitl money. Bad timing for them.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:30 PM   #3042
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Dube was moved after 2 games. And in those 2 games I thought they looked good. Ritchie has played what, now, 5?

Salary wise, you are comparing 3 guys who were signed to fantastic deals - IMO they are bargains as opposed to Monahan being a super bad contract. And Scheifele and Mackinnon did so before the huge rise in RFA contracts. Have a look at most of the other centres at that level of salary. The 2 years before Scheifele signed he scored 49 and 61 points. Pretty good but the next year he exploded. Mackinnon signed the same year after 51 points. It took him 2 years before he skyrocketed. Monahan signed a similar contract, with similar points at a similar time. The difference is they were bargains. Monahan is slightly below value, if at all, when you compare him with Stastny, Schenn, Couture, RyJo, Stepan, Duchene etc.

A couple years later and Mackinnon and Scheifele would be making Aho/Draisaitl money. Bad timing for them.
Well, clearly the coach didnít think so. I thought Mangiapane-Monahan-Dube looked good for one game, the first game they were united, after that, theyíve looked very underwhelming any time Iíve seen them line up together. Itís probably the same reason Monahan has seen so many different wingers over the last 10 games, he canít find chemistry with anyone other than #13. I think at one point I even Lucic-Monahan combination. If he was playing well, Darryl wouldnít be moving him from line to line.

In regards to salary, in my opinion, I think Monahan is over paid, especially on this team. Simple as that. He makes a few hundred thousand less than Gaudreau, so thereís a certain level of execution and production that should be expected from him and he hasnít come close to hitting it. I mean heís basically paid to score goals and thatís it, because heís not a shut down guy, heís not a pass first guy and heís not a physical guy. So if heís not scoring, then what else does he do? If he was on pace for a 30 goal type season instead of a 17 goal season (82 games), then the Flames might still be in playoff contention rather than in off-season mode.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:55 PM   #3043
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Well, clearly the coach didnít think so. I thought Mangiapane-Monahan-Dube looked good for one game, the first game they were united, after that, theyíve looked very underwhelming any time Iíve seen them line up together. Itís probably the same reason Monahan has seen so many different wingers over the last 10 games, he canít find chemistry with anyone other than #13. I think at one point I even Lucic-Monahan combination. If he was playing well, Darryl wouldnít be moving him from line to line.

In regards to salary, in my opinion, I think Monahan is over paid, especially on this team. Simple as that. He makes a few hundred thousand less than Gaudreau, so thereís a certain level of execution and production that should be expected from him and he hasnít come close to hitting it. I mean heís basically paid to score goals and thatís it, because heís not a shut down guy, heís not a pass first guy and heís not a physical guy. So if heís not scoring, then what else does he do? If he was on pace for a 30 goal type season instead of a 17 goal season (82 games), then the Flames might still be in playoff contention rather than in off-season mode.
I don't think many people had issue with the Monahan contract at the time. I didn't.

But yeah he is overpaid for what he is bringing now and it has been a downward trend since last year.

It's a tough spot for the club to be in. I'd rather pay a pure checking guy less money that what we're getting now for $6.3 million.
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:31 PM   #3044
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Well, clearly the coach didnít think so. I thought Mangiapane-Monahan-Dube looked good for one game, the first game they were united, after that, theyíve looked very underwhelming any time Iíve seen them line up together. Itís probably the same reason Monahan has seen so many different wingers over the last 10 games, he canít find chemistry with anyone other than #13. I think at one point I even Lucic-Monahan combination. If he was playing well, Darryl wouldnít be moving him from line to line.

In regards to salary, in my opinion, I think Monahan is over paid, especially on this team. Simple as that. He makes a few hundred thousand less than Gaudreau, so thereís a certain level of execution and production that should be expected from him and he hasnít come close to hitting it. I mean heís basically paid to score goals and thatís it, because heís not a shut down guy, heís not a pass first guy and heís not a physical guy. So if heís not scoring, then what else does he do? If he was on pace for a 30 goal type season instead of a 17 goal season (82 games), then the Flames might still be in playoff contention rather than in off-season mode.
Monahan is overpaid right now. But if so, so are most centres making his money. My point is that using bargains like Scheifele or Barkov or Mackinnon isnít that fair. Those guys should be making way more than they do.

Youíre right, Monahan, Mangiapane and Dube looked great in the first game. But they only had one other that I can recall. Then Sutter moved Dube (who heís had a short leash for all season). Since then itís been Ritchie all the time. The only other change was when he put Gaudreau back for a game and a half.
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:03 PM   #3045
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Monahan is overpaid right now. But if so, so are most centres making his money. My point is that using bargains like Scheifele or Barkov or Mackinnon isnít that fair. Those guys should be making way more than they do.

Youíre right, Monahan, Mangiapane and Dube looked great in the first game. But they only had one other that I can recall. Then Sutter moved Dube (who heís had a short leash for all season). Since then itís been Ritchie all the time. The only other change was when he put Gaudreau back for a game and a half.
I only use those 3 because their deals were comparables with Monahan's at the time. Heck, Barkov and Mackinnon were in the exact same draft as him and their new deals started at the same time. I'm not going to compare him to an Auston Matthews or a Sebastian Aho who saw their deals come after the great inflation of 2017 (McDavid & Draisaitl).

Also, there's a whole lot of Brett Ritchie bashing in your posts, so what would your solution be? Dube marginally worked out, but Darryl obviously didn't think much of it to go back to. No way Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk get split up again, they're carrying this team. I suppose if Treliving did a better job of filling out the right side of the roster, maybe Monahan might have more options. But it is what it is, he's the $6 million dollar man, he needs to find a way to generate his own shot and his own goals once in a while. Can't always rely on a guy to feed it to you in ideal places, otherwise you're in James Neal territory.
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:41 PM   #3046
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Monahan is overpaid right now. But if so, so are most centres making his money. My point is that using bargains like Scheifele or Barkov or Mackinnon isnít that fair. Those guys should be making way more than they do.

Youíre right, Monahan, Mangiapane and Dube looked great in the first game. But they only had one other that I can recall. Then Sutter moved Dube (who heís had a short leash for all season). Since then itís been Ritchie all the time. The only other change was when he put Gaudreau back for a game and a half.
How are you coming up with this? Monahan is one of the lowest producing forwards in the league. He is 199th in the NHL for ES points per 60 and 307th in ES goals per 60.

307th.

What's scary is where some other Flames are on that list.

Gaudreau is 172 in ES points, 127th in goals
Tkachuk is 197 in ES points and 285th in goals.

How (or why) are people still defending these guys? They have been horrible.
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:53 PM   #3047
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How are you coming up with this? Monahan is one of the lowest producing forwards in the league. He is 199th in the NHL for ES points per 60 and 307th in ES goals per 60.

307th.

What's scary is where some other Flames are on that list.

Gaudreau is 172 in ES points, 127th in goals
Tkachuk is 197 in ES points and 285th in goals.

How (or why) are people still defending these guys? They have been horrible.
Iím coming up with this on CapFriendly, looking at centres making from $5.5M upwards. Thereís some real bargains on there because of some great early signings, a couple ELCs and guys that are having a one off year. But there are lot of centres in the Monahan point range (which is way below his usual) who make about the same as him. Iíve named them several times.

I donít discount PP points like you do. They count the same on the scoreboard.
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:40 PM   #3048
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How are you coming up with this? Monahan is one of the lowest producing forwards in the league. He is 199th in the NHL for ES points per 60 and 307th in ES goals per 60.

307th.

What's scary is where some other Flames are on that list.

Gaudreau is 172 in ES points, 127th in goals
Tkachuk is 197 in ES points and 285th in goals.

How (or why) are people still defending these guys? They have been horrible.
The thing that is weird to me is how people love to single out and obsess over individuals, while giving their faves the benefit of the doubt. All three have been garbage...hence our garbage season.
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Old 05-04-2021, 08:59 PM   #3049
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It’s funny because I don’t feel like defending any of them. All year I’ve been saying the team just isn’t good enough. I don’t feel that, at their best, they can compete with the better teams at their best. They can win when they play well and the better teams don’t. What I usually comment on are data points that I think are overstated or incorrect. This is one.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:36 PM   #3050
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Iím coming up with this on CapFriendly, looking at centres making from $5.5M upwards. Thereís some real bargains on there because of some great early signings, a couple ELCs and guys that are having a one off year. But there are lot of centres in the Monahan point range (which is way below his usual) who make about the same as him. Iíve named them several times.

I donít discount PP points like you do. They count the same on the scoreboard.
I don't discount it at all. Monahan is 240th in the NHL in goals per 60 in all situations. Gaudreau is 71st, Tkachuk is a stellar 258th.

Which is the data point that is incorrect here?
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:37 PM   #3051
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The thing that is weird to me is how people love to single out and obsess over individuals, while giving their faves the benefit of the doubt. All three have been garbage...hence our garbage season.
The one thing Gaudreau is doing is that he is putting the puck in the net, albeit more on the PP vs even strength.

I'd say of the three of them, Gaudreau's sniping is the only thing that is not a huge disappointment.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:38 PM   #3052
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I don't discount it at all. Monahan is 240th in the NHL in goals per 60 in all situations. Gaudreau is 71st, Tkachuk is a stellar 258th.



Which is the data point that is incorrect here?
I take it this is just for this year? What do these rankings look like for the last 3 years or since they started in the league?
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:45 PM   #3053
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I don't discount it at all. Monahan is 240th in the NHL in goals per 60 in all situations. Gaudreau is 71st, Tkachuk is a stellar 258th.

Which is the data point that is incorrect here?
The salary, compared to other centres, which is what I was commenting on.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:46 PM   #3054
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I take it this is just for this year? What do these rankings look like for the last 3 years or since they started in the league?
Definitely just for this year.

Just looking at goals per 60 in all situations, Monahan was 99th last year, 33rd in 2018-19 and 30th in 2017-18.

That is one scary trend line. And certainly not expected by anyone when he signed that contract.

You just can't win with big money players dragging you down like that. And it's not just the money but all the ice time they're getting while being utterly ineffective.
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:51 PM   #3055
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The salary, compared to other centres, which is what I was commenting on.
He's the 34th highest paid center and 60th highest paid forward in the league. Those are just facts.

He's not the only disappointing player in the league but that doesn't change the situation for this club. As I've said, there is no one picking up the slack since hardly anyone is playing up to their salary.
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Old 05-05-2021, 06:25 AM   #3056
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I was curious about this, so I looked it up.

From 2014-2015 (the start of BT's tenure) to now, the Flames are 21st in the league in total points. We have drafted less in the first round than any team in the bottom 10, indeed, less than any team but Washington, Tampa, and Pittsburgh who are 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the league during the same period. We have had fewer draft picks in total since 2014 than all but five teams. We've also spent to the cap for every year except for two years at the beginning of BT's time. For all this, we have four playoff appearances and one series win.

I used to think that Benning was one of the worst GMs in the league, but the Canucks are 26th during the same period. They have a young 1C, a young top pairing D, and a young potential 1G. They also have the same number of series wins as the Flames.

As someone on this board correctly summarized: better than Feaster (26th overall in the league by points from 2011-2013), but not by much.

Last edited by Jore; 05-05-2021 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 05-05-2021, 06:47 AM   #3057
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I realize that there's a group of fans that don't embrace change, fearing things could get worse but the organization will never improve by staying the same and 7 years is a large sample size that proves the GM isn't good enough to take the team to a cup contender or even an annual playoff team. It's time for a GM that can come in and evaluate the talent without any attachment to the players or coaches in the organization. Nobody can ever argue Brad Treliving didn't get a chance as he's one of the longest tenured GM's in the league and it just hasn't worked out. He will be a great assistant GM for the next team that hires him but not everyone is cut out to be the man.
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Old 05-05-2021, 06:50 AM   #3058
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I was curious about this, so I looked it up.

From 2014-2015 (the start of BT's tenure) to now, the Flames are 21st in the league in total points. We have drafted less in the first round than any team in the bottom 10, indeed, less than any team but Washington, Tampa, and Pittsburgh who are 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the league during the same period. We have had fewer draft picks in total since 2014 than all but five teams. We've also spent to the cap for every year except for two years at the beginning of BT's time. For all this, we have four playoff appearances and one series win.

I used to think that Benning was one of the worst GMs in the league, but the Canucks are 26th during the same period. They have a young 1C, a young top pairing D, and a young potential 1G. They also have the same number of series wins as the Flames.

As someone on this board correctly summarized: better than Feaster (26th overall in the league by points from 2011-2013), but not by much.


Treliving took the team over very early in a rebuild so there were obviously a couple of bad years in there. If the next GM that takes over the team and wants to rebuild get ready for similar or worse results.

The whole 1st round pick thing doesnít really jive for me especially if people really open their eyes they will see that 2018 is really the only gap.

2014- Bennett + 2 picks in the second round
2015 - pick is traded for Hamilton 3 years later Hamilton is traded for a 21 year old former 5th overall pick 2015. The Flames recouped a player taken 10 spots ahead of their original pick just 3 years later + they drafted twice in the 2nd round
2016 - Tkachuk + 2 picks in the 2nd round
2017 - Valimaki and here is where we start to see a lack of picks
2018 - brutal Hamonic trade sees NYI select Dobson with our pick
2019 - Pelletier but no 2nd rounder
2020 - Zary and finally back to having a 2nd

Yes the Hamonic trade was absolutely brutal as if you want to be technical the flames did not actually draft in round 1 in 15 in addition to 18 but it all worked out in the end with the Hurricanes blockbuster which has the teams best forward and too young Dman locked up for under $5M
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Old 05-05-2021, 07:11 AM   #3059
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Treliving took the team over very early in a rebuild so there were obviously a couple of bad years in there. If the next GM that takes over the team and wants to rebuild get ready for similar or worse results.

The whole 1st round pick thing doesnít really jive for me especially if people really open their eyes they will see that 2018 is really the only gap.

2014- Bennett + 2 picks in the second round
2015 - pick is traded for Hamilton 3 years later Hamilton is traded for a 21 year old former 5th overall pick 2015. The Flames recouped a player taken 10 spots ahead of their original pick just 3 years later + they drafted twice in the 2nd round
2016 - Tkachuk + 2 picks in the 2nd round
2017 - Valimaki and here is where we start to see a lack of picks
2018 - brutal Hamonic trade sees NYI select Dobson with our pick
2019 - Pelletier but no 2nd rounder
2020 - Zary and finally back to having a 2nd

Yes the Hamonic trade was absolutely brutal as if you want to be technical the flames did not actually draft in round 1 in 15 in addition to 18 but it all worked out in the end with the Hurricanes blockbuster which has the teams best forward and too young Dman locked up for under $5M
Itís more than just the first round picks that are the problem. In the last three drafts no team has made fewer selections than the Flames have in the first two rounds of the draft. Treliving has leveraged the future to build the roster he has today/had for the last few seasons, and they havenít won a playoff series since 2015. Thatís just bad.
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Old 05-05-2021, 07:19 AM   #3060
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Treliving took the team over very early in a rebuild so there were obviously a couple of bad years in there. If the next GM that takes over the team and wants to rebuild get ready for similar or worse results.
Yeah and if the next GM builds a bubble-at-best team seven years after rebuilding that GM should be fired too.

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The whole 1st round pick thing doesn’t really jive for me especially if people really open their eyes they will see that 2018 is really the only gap.

2014- Bennett + 2 picks in the second round
2015 - pick is traded for Hamilton 3 years later Hamilton is traded for a 21 year old former 5th overall pick 2015. The Flames recouped a player taken 10 spots ahead of their original pick just 3 years later + they drafted twice in the 2nd round
2016 - Tkachuk + 2 picks in the 2nd round
2017 - Valimaki and here is where we start to see a lack of picks
2018 - brutal Hamonic trade sees NYI select Dobson with our pick
2019 - Pelletier but no 2nd rounder
2020 - Zary and finally back to having a 2nd

Yes the Hamonic trade was absolutely brutal as if you want to be technical the flames did not actually draft in round 1 in 15 in addition to 18 but it all worked out in the end with the Hurricanes blockbuster which has the teams best forward and too young Dman locked up for under $5M
It all worked out? How? The Flames have next to nothing to show for this future mortgaging. We got a few decent pieces, ok, and we're also at the cap and in 20th place this season with no star prospects on the way.

No matter how you spin it and dissect it the fact remains that the Flames have picked less than almost every team and have all of one playoff round victory for it.
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