[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It was a "slam-dunk" for the Flames. I mean that in the sense that the team is a lot better as a direct result of that trade. It was also a "slam-dunk" for Carolina. The thing that annoys me is that posters insist on declaring a winner when BOTH TEAMS WON. That is part of what makes this trade really difficult to judge: Both teams have no regrets; both teams are better for it.

[/I]
You are right about this, but aren't you also guilty of the same hyperbole to make your point by labeling Hanifin as a "below average #4 defenseman," whose development has "stalled"?

No, that is not hyperbole. He’s poor possession wise, points wise and makes regular defensive gaffes. He still has potential, as I have pointed out, but if what we see now is what we are gonna get (which is every bit as possible as him taking the next step is) then that’s gotta be looked at as a big disappointment. Don’t know how opining that his development has seemingly stalled out can be called hyperbole. This season is on pace for 18 points, is still not very good possession wise and still makes big defensive mistakes. He hasn’t really improved upon his last season in Carolina yet. Seems stalled to me. Can definitely change, no doubt but all we have to make observations on are the play he’s putting forth now and to me it looks stalled. I’ll agree with the guy who says he’d like to see Hanifin with another partner, I wonder if Hamonic (whose also taken a fair step back from last season) is holding him back a bit.

Also unsure about it being a slam dunk for both teams but just agree to disagree there. When Giordano is done (and unfortunately that decline may be beginning) we’re really going to wish we had a player like Hamilton. Hopefully Anderson or Valimaki become that because even if Hanifin takes the next step I don’t think No 1 d man is ever in the cards for him.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

No, that is not hyperbole. He’s poor possession wise, points wise and makes regular defensive gaffes. He still has potential, as I have pointed out, but if what we see now is what we are gonna get (which is every bit as possible as him taking the next step is) then that’s gotta be looked at as a big disappointment. Don’t know how opining that his development has seemingly stalled out can be called hyperbole. This season is on pace for 18 points, is still not very good possession wise and still makes big defensive mistakes. He hasn’t really improved upon his last season in Carolina yet. Seems stalled to me. Can definitely change, no doubt but all we have to make observations on are the play he’s putting forth now and to me it looks stalled. I’ll agree with the guy who says he’d like to see Hanifin with another partner, I wonder if Hamonic (whose also taken a fair step back from last season) is holding him back a bit.

Hanifin was easily better last year than he was in Carolina, and has slipped some this year—I think understandably so given everything the team has endured in the first two months.

Also unsure about it being a slam dunk for both teams but just agree to disagree there. When Giordano is done (and unfortunately that decline may be beginning) we’re really going to wish we had a player like Hamilton. Hopefully Anderson or Valimaki become that because even if Hanifin takes the next step I don’t think No 1 d man is ever in the cards for him.

I just told you why it was a slam dunk for both teams. BOTH TEAMS ARE BETTER BECAUSE OF THE TRADE—quite a bit better, actually. And while there may soon be a day when the Flames pine for Hamilton, I am NOT convinced that that wish will come at the expense of Lindholm and Hanifin.

[Enoch Root]

We HAD a player like Hamilton. He was great on the PP, but was also soft and inconsistent, and could be thrown off his game when things got physical.

Hamilton is not a #1 defenseman - he is a #2 that is better suited in the east.

Hanifin has not stalled. He has all the tools and continues to show signs of becoming a really solid player (Dmen take time and he is the same age as Andersson and Kylington). The Hanifin-Hamonic pairing has struggled this year and I think Hanifin looks much better with Andersson.

IMO, Lindholm is the best player in the deal, Hamilton second, and Hanifin 3rd. Both teams are happy with the trade, but it has been a homerun for the Flames

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Hanifin was easily better last year than he was in Carolina, and has slipped some this year—I think understandably so given everything the team has endured in the first two months.


I just told you why it was a slam dunk for both teams. BOTH TEAMS ARE BETTER BECAUSE OF THE TRADE—quite a bit better, actually. And while there may soon be a day when the Flames pine for Hamilton, I am NOT convinced that that wish will come at the expense of Lindholm and Hanifin.

That’s nice that you put that in capitals to repeat your opinion (That you present as fact because that’s what arrigance is) but I guess I’ll say again - I DONT AGREE THAT BOTH TEAMS ARE BETTER- did putting it in capitals make it any different?

Krike.

We filled a RW hole but significantly weakened our defence imo. I view the trade as a slight loss that i personally wouldn’t do again, but I certainly can see the argument that it was a win for the flames. I don’t have to disparage players to come to that conclusion.

Also, how do you personally know that Hanifin was better last year than in Carolina? Big canes fan that watched all his games or what? Same offensive production, worse possession metrics in Calgary, all while benefitting from a 100+ PDO versus 95 in Carolina. I will say that it appears he was heavily sheltered with zone starts in Carolina. But unless you actually watched most of the canes games from that season I’m not sure how you can proclaim that he was much improved last year because the numbers dont show it, and my eyes didn’t see a very good player last year.

[GioforPM]

My eyes don't see Hamilton being an elite defenceman. And seeing him as a replacement for Gio seems a tad overstated.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Also unsure about it being a slam dunk for both teams but just agree to disagree there. When Giordano is done (and unfortunately that decline may be beginning) we’re really going to wish we had a player like Hamilton. Hopefully Anderson or Valimaki become that because even if Hanifin takes the next step I don’t think No 1 d man is ever in the cards for him.

Agree partially. I think (hope) Anderson replaces Gio with his combination of skill and grit. Hamilton has zero of the intangibles that Gio brings. He is highly skilled but not a leader, not a warrior.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

My eyes don't see Hamilton being an elite defenceman. And seeing him as a replacement for Gio seems a tad overstated.

To say the least. Hamilton is elite offensively, but that's it. He isn't a team leader or a #1 D.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

My eyes don't see Hamilton being an elite defenceman. And seeing him as a replacement for Gio seems a tad overstated.

Well to most people observing in the hockey world he is currently a front runner for the Norris so I guess I’ll just agree to disagree. I’m not sure he’ll ever be as good as Gio, but that’s not the bar imo because Gio is one of the best of his generation as far as I’m concerned. Would be awesome to get another guy as good as Gio to take over but that is unlikely. Like replacing Kipper or Iginla.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Well to most people observing in the hockey world he is currently a front runner for the Norris so I guess I’ll just agree to disagree. I’m not sure he’ll ever be as good as Gio, but that’s not the bar imo because Gio is one of the best of his generation as far as I’m concerned. Would be awesome to get another guy as good as Gio to take over but that is unlikely. Like replacing Kipper or Iginla.

I would bet a fair bit that he won’t win a Norris ever. And front runner? Carlson would like a word. I bet he finishes behind Carlson, Hedman and maybe even Makar, even if he continues his current pace. I can name at least 10 Dmen I’d take ahead of him on my team, which puts him good, but not elite, in my book.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Well to most people observing in the hockey world he is currently a front runner for the Norris so I guess I’ll just agree to disagree. I’m not sure he’ll ever be as good as Gio, but that’s not the bar imo because Gio is one of the best of his generation as far as I’m concerned. Would be awesome to get another guy as good as Gio to take over but that is unlikely. Like replacing Kipper or Iginla.

Most?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

That’s nice that you put that in capitals to repeat your opinion (That you present as fact because that’s what arrigance is) but I guess I’ll say again - I DONT AGREE THAT BOTH TEAMS ARE BETTER- did putting it in capitals make it any different?

Carolina season pre trade: 88 points
Carolina season post trade: 99 points
Hamilton: Career high 18 goals. On a tear this season.

Calgary season pre trade: 84 points
Calgary season post trade: 107 points
Lindholm: career high 27 goals and 51 assists.


How is it not a fact that both teams came out better?

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I would bet a fair bit that he won’t win a Norris ever. And front runner? Carlson would like a word. I bet he finishes behind Carlson, Hedman and maybe even Makar, even if he continues his current pace. I can name at least 10 Dmen I’d take ahead of him on my team, which puts him good, but not elite, in my book.

If you’re competing for a Norris you are an elite defence men in my book.

Makar probably deserves it, Carlson probably gets it, Dougie is a finalist... if they voted today. Lots of season left for that to change.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Carolina season pre trade: 88 points
Carolina season post trade: 99 points
Hamilton: Career high 18 goals. On a tear this season.

Calgary season pre trade: 84 points
Calgary season post trade: 107 points
Lindholm: career high 27 goals and 51 assists.


How is it not a fact that both teams came out better?

Because that trade isnt a vacuum and isnt the only factor in the teams improving?? You act like if Calgary doesn’t make that particular trade then there’s no other moves they make. I would argue big improvements out of Tkachuk, Hamonic and others combined with career seasons out of almost everyone was the biggest factor for last years points improvement (which was followed by getting totally embarrassed in the playoffs and following that up with a troubling start to this season). Right now I don’t think the team is much if any better than it was before the trade, but there’s a lot more to factor into that than just that trade...like I said earlier. Point is you can’t determine that they wouldn’t have had vast improvements with it without the trade and hence it becomes an opinion based on ones subjective view and not a fact. Silly that I even have to say that tbh.

[dammage79]

Hands down a win for Calgary. You can debate until your blue in the face about the talent disparity between all players but the context once again has been lost. The context that makes this trade a massive win for Calgary is still the amount of time and frankly money saving the trade turned out to be. 2 RFA's in great value contracts until the core is done their contract run.

As far as I am concerned, the loss in point production between Dougie and Noah is made up from a more stable and willing defensive presence.

Oh and it really does seem to get lost no matter who says it and that's that Noah is only 22. Flames have right now a top 4 for the next build cycle. A very very nice foundation to build on long term.

But let's argue more about dougies greatness. Which is a moot point regarding the Flames concerns.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

If you’re competing for a Norris you are an elite defence men in my book.

Makar probably deserves it, Carlson probably gets it, Dougie is a finalist... if they voted today. Lots of season left for that to change.

All defencemen compete for a Norris, there isn’t even really such a thing as a finalist, just a top three. But to your point, plenty of merely good defencemen have had a great year and finished high in Norris votes. Elite players are the ones who are in it every year. Last year Hamilton had 4 votes.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

If you’re competing for a Norris you are an elite defence men in my book.

Makar probably deserves it, Carlson probably gets it, Dougie is a finalist... if they voted today. Lots of season left for that to change.

But it’s all on your book. Just being in the conversation for a Norris in December doesn’t make you elite. Just being one of a few guys putting up similar points doesn’t mean you’re a finalist.

Dougie is a good top pairing defence man who is great at putting up points. Everything else is opinion.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Because that trade isnt a vacuum and isnt the only factor in the teams improving?? You act like if Calgary doesn’t make that particular trade then there’s no other moves they make. I would argue big improvements out of Tkachuk, Hamonic and others combined with career seasons out of almost everyone was the biggest factor. Point is you can’t determine that they wouldn’t have had vast improvements with it without the trade and hence it becomes an opinion based on ones subjective view.

Okay so both teams improve as a whole, both teams fill a need positionally, the players they acquire have career seasons directly contributing to their success, and the flames lock up both pieces to terms that match the rest of their core...but this requires some kind of deeper analysis?

You’re welcome to your opinion, but give us some substance to it other than “I have a right to say this”. So far your points seem to be that Hamilton is really good (no debate here) and that it annoys you people think it’s a slam dunk for the flames. So then a few of us agree both teams win, but that makes you even more upset. Why don’t you take a breath and outline something that makes sense.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Well to most people observing in the hockey world he is currently a front runner for the Norris...

Originally Posted by the2bears

Most?

"Everyone says so."

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Okay so both teams improve as a whole, both teams fill a need positionally, the players they acquire have career seasons directly contributing to their success, and the flames lock up both pieces to terms that match the rest of their core...but this requires some kind of deeper analysis?

You’re welcome to your opinion, but give us some substance to it other than “I have a right to say this”. So far your points seem to be that Hamilton is really good (no debate here) and that it annoys you people think it’s a slam dunk for the flames. So then a few of us agree both teams win, but that makes you even more upset. Why don’t you take a breath and outline something that makes sense.

Ya if that’s all you’ve gleaned from what I’ve written then whatever. And beat it with the more upset #### about someone mentioning both teams won- I literally just said agree to disagree and then he responded with a ridiculous all caps dumb thing so I just did it right back at him. Get real.

Elite no 1 d man (of course that is my opinion) one year of Ferland, and two second round picks for Lindholm (top line winger, would like to see play more center) and Hanifin (young no 4 d man whose development has slowed significantly). That’s not a great trade to me.

And no the contract stuff is not lost on me. Lindholms contract is great, already mentioned that I think it was Tre’s greatest move. Hamilton’s contract was great. Hanifins contracts is not good unless he takes the next step. But, as I have pointed out several times Dammage, he is young and still has potential. But him fulfilling that potential is far from a sure bet and actually appears to be declining based on current play. And age matter a lot less than the amount of time they’ve spent in the NHL. Hanifin has played a lot, and I’m not sure if what we’ve now seen is what we’re gonna get. Like Bennett, everyone just pointed at his age and ignored the warning signs. Could end up looking back at Hanifin and wondering if spending a few years in the AHL would have been beneficial (with Carolina of course, that wouldn’t be a mistake by the flames)

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

All defencemen compete for a Norris

What an observation, wow