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Old 10-29-2020, 04:23 PM   #1241
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Originally Posted by Zulu29 View Post
Well, since the thread is about CPS, Canadian policing is more relevant.
Well you have the Yatim case where the officer was convicted of attempted murder

Neil Stonechild - murdered by police in the starlight tours
Rodney Naistus - murdered by police in the starlight tours
Lawrence Wagner - murdered by police in the starlight tours

Darrel Night - Police only got unlawful confinement despite the officers trying to murder him like the 3 above.

That’s off the top of my head without googling.
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Old 10-29-2020, 04:26 PM   #1242
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Well you have the Yatim case where the officer was convicted of attempted murder

Neil Stonechild - murdered by police in the starlight tours
Rodney Naistus - murdered by police in the starlight tours
Lawrence Wagner - murdered by police in the starlight tours

Darrel Night - Police only got unlawful confinement despite the officers trying to murder him like the 3 above.

That’s off the top of my head without googling.
The Yatim immediately came to mind as well. As for the starlight tours, were the officers tried and convicted for murder or attempted murder? Honestly I don’t know, I’ll have to look it up. So the Darrel Night incident wasn’t murder or attempted murder. Ok I’m just looking for examples of the topic you raised.
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Old 10-29-2020, 06:26 PM   #1243
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A timely notification: "Police Accountability Takes Time"

https://newsroom.calgary.ca/police-a...tla5a-yzB7isSM
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Old 10-29-2020, 07:24 PM   #1244
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Holy cow this story has gone completely viral. It’s all over Twitter being shared by some pretty well known people.
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Old 10-29-2020, 10:23 PM   #1245
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The Yatim immediately came to mind as well. As for the starlight tours, were the officers tried and convicted for murder or attempted murder? Honestly I don’t know, I’ll have to look it up. So the Darrel Night incident wasn’t murder or attempted murder. Ok I’m just looking for examples of the topic you raised.
No officers were charged in the three murders.

If you read through the Stonechild stuff it’s very clear he was dropped off on the outskirts of town by police and left to die.

The Saskatoon Police had a semi organized program of dumping natives outside of city limits in winter weather. The police were the ones who called it the starlight tours. It was the police lynching Natives.

2 officers were fired in the Stonechild incident years after only because Darrel Night survived and told his story causing an inquiry into Stonechild.

As recently as 2016 the Saskatoon police tried to erase mention of these incidents from its Wikipedia page.

So yeah 0 is the acceptable number.

Last edited by GGG; 10-29-2020 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 10-29-2020, 11:03 PM   #1246
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Has CPS ever had a training session from Dave Grossman?
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Old 10-29-2020, 11:23 PM   #1247
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A timely notification: "Police Accountability Takes Time"

https://newsroom.calgary.ca/police-a...tla5a-yzB7isSM
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:42 PM   #1248
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A timely notification: "Police Accountability Takes Time"

https://newsroom.calgary.ca/police-a...tla5a-yzB7isSM
Sorry, this will take a bit of a long post to address. If you do not want to take the time to read it, then post #1247 by Locke is a fairly decent summary.

This press release is a rather troubling attempt to deflect responsibility by inaccurately blaming 'the system' to make it appear as though the police have no options because of the law around police discipline in Alberta.

Being involved in the current Police Act reform process, this public relations campaign only adds to the concern that 'reforms' will ultimately be minor changes that are heavily slanted in favour of police officers / police services and will not actually put civilian members of the public's interests first.

I would say in my opinion this 'timely notification' is instead a desperate scramble to deal with the fact the video of the still-employed CPS officer has been viewed around the world now 12.6 million times on just one twitter post and has become the subject of intense criticism and comment by many NBA and NFL players, US journalists (not just TMZ, but even TMZ), Hollywood actors and political commentators of prominence such as George Conway.

First - none of this in any way takes away from the presumption of innocence of Cst. Alex Dunn and the need for the Crown to prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. But as many posters have pointed out on this site, that only applies to the criminal case he faces.

So let's look at the CPS attempt to 'help answer some questions'.

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Police officers have the same rights as everyone else, including being assumed innocent until proven guilty and the right to a fair trial. When criminal charges are laid, we must ensure our actions do not impact either of these rights. This includes pausing our internal investigation and disciplinary process.

Here is why. Alberta law only allows a police officer to be disciplined or fired for serious misconduct through an investigation and public hearing. These hearings operate like a court. Witnesses can be called, evidence is presented and a ruling is made by an independent presiding officer (not the Chief).

Holding a hearing like this before a criminal trial would introduce information into the public realm that could impact the court’s ability to hold a fair and unbiased trial.
In the tweet accompanying this notice, the CPS was more explicit as to being required to wait for the criminal trial saying they "must wait until after the trial to consider any discipline."

That is not what the legislation says.

Section 47(2) and (3) of the Police Act (under the heading Conduct of Hearing) fully contemplates criminal investigation and charges can run in parallel to internal discipline hearings:

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(2) Notwithstanding that the actions of a police officer have been referred to the Minister of Justice and Solicitor General under section 45(2)(a) or 46(3)(a), if the person who referred the matter to the Minister of Justice and Solicitor General is of the opinion that those actions also constitute a contravention of the regulations governing the discipline or the performance of duty of police officers, the matter as it relates to that contravention shall be proceeded with under section 45(3) or 46(4), as the case may be, unless the Minister of Justice and Solicitor General otherwise directs.

(3) Notwithstanding section 45(3) or 46(4), where a matter that is referred to the Minister of Justice and Solicitor General under section 45(2)(a) or 46(3)(a) is also to be proceeded with under section 45(3) or 46(4), the hearing of the matter under section 45(3) or 46(4) may be deferred until the proceedings respecting the offence are concluded.
So the default in the law is for the internal discipline to proceed unless the Minister says otherwise. And the law allows an option that the internal hearing MAY be deferred. Not MUST.

In order to bolster its incorrect claim, the CPS invokes that a police discipline hearing must be public.

This is blatantly untrue. I have defended a police officer in an internal discipline proceeding that was conducted 100% in private, and I have also successfully challenged a Chief of Police trying to close a hearing to the public for invalid reasons. The Police Service Regulation on this reads:

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16(1) Where a hearing or a portion of a hearing is to be conducted under Part 5 of the Act,

(a) in the case of a complaint referred to in section 45 of the Act, the chief of police shall direct that the hearing or a portion of it be conducted in public or private whichever he determines to be in the public interest, and

(b) in the case of a complaint referred to in section 46 of the Act, the person who is to preside over the hearing shall direct that the hearing or a portion of it be conducted in public or private whichever he determines to be in the public interest.
So, where the public interest is served, the discipline hearing can be done in private. There is absolutely no need whatsoever for a disciplinary hearing run ahead of a criminal trial to introduce information to the public that could actually undermine the fairness of the trial.

And in most situations, that claim doesn't make any legitimate sense anyway. As an appellate lawyer, I can assure you that many times very serious criminal trials have to be set aside and run a second or even third time (more than three happens too but it is quite rare).

You know what is very often 'introduced into the public realm' prior to the re-trial? Well, the entirety of the exact same evidence that will be called in trial #2, PLUS reporting on the accused's conviction, PLUS details of how many years the offender was ordered to be in prison, PLUS detailed arguments before and opinions from the Court of Appeal about the significance of evidence and errors made in the first trial.

While we may need to take some steps to challenge jurors for cause (to make sure they are not prejudging the new trial based on old info in the public domain) we regularly and routinely hold fair criminal re-trials on the exact same criminal charges with the exact same witnesses testifying over again.

One of the most infamous cases in Alberta touching this issue involved an RCMP officer charged with murder arguing unsuccessfully that his third trial would be an abuse of process:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle22733121/

But CPS says if they dealt with employee discipline first that would create an insurmountable risk to the fairness of a later criminal trial?

There may well be cases where it is appropriate to defer the internal discipline hearing until after the criminal trial. And an accused officer can apply for a deferral and try to make the case for it.

But the suggestion that the law or the 'current process' requires this in every case is wrong. So, if the CPS wanted to answer questions that the public has after seeing the video in the Cst. Alex Dunn case, then it ought to have explained why deferring the internal proceeding was in the public interest in that case. Not claim, 'the system made me do it'.

Now on to the scapegoating of the law as it relates to suspension from duty without pay. The CPS writes:

Quote:
Under Alberta’s Police Service Regulation, we can only relieve a member from duty without pay when “exceptional circumstances” exist and it must be confirmed by the Calgary Police Commission. But the law does not define what counts as an “exceptional circumstance.”

Some guidance is provided by limited case law set by previous court decisions and Law Enforcement Review Board appeals. We must weigh this guidance with the procedural fairness of revoking the livelihood of the member and their family for potentially years while awaiting a trial or hearing – a time during which they are considered innocent until proven guilty.
While it is true the Police Service Regulation does not define exceptional circumstances, the 'limited case law' confirms what that phrase means is a Chief of Police has extremely broad latitude to decide when suspension without pay should be ordered. (Note the legislation also expressly provides for return of all missed pay in the event that the officer is cleared of the alleged misconduct).

What the Court of Queen's Bench said in 2014 on the topic was that a Chief's decision (and the upholding of that by the police commission) just has to be within the range of reasonable possible decisions based on the circumstances. The Court went on to characterize the factors that could justify such a decision as:

Quote:
the list of factors...includes misconduct that may reasonably damage the police service’s reputation or undermine internal accountability or discipline within the service if the officer is not relieved from duty without pay.
https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/do...14abqb126.html

I can certainly imagine that any such decision by a Chief of Police is a difficult one, and as the CPS have said, it requires a balancing act. But, again, any Chief of Police can decide to send a different message to those in his or her command...and make a swift suspension without pay be a regular and realistic consequence for engaging in conduct that members of the public are voicing loud and clear is not acceptable and will no longer be tolerated.

If the decision of the Chief is unreasonable, then the Commission (and ultimately the Court) is there to act as a check and balance and they will not uphold the decision.

And once suspended without pay there is a very simple way to deal with the concern about the officer and their family being without that income: expeditiously run the damn hearing.

In fact, the timelines that the legislature intended are in the regulation as well:

Quote:
Time limits

7(1) A police officer shall not be charged with contravening section 5 at any time after 6 months from the day that a complaint is made in accordance with section 43 of the Act.

(2) Subject to section 47(2) and (3) of the Act, where a hearing is to be held under the Act, the hearing shall be commenced no later than 3 months from the day that a police officer is charged with contravening section 5.

(3) Where a hearing is commenced under the Act it shall, subject to section 47(1)(i) of the Act, be completed within a reasonable time and without undue delay.

(4) Notwithstanding that time limits are prescribed under this section, the commission may, if it is of the opinion that circumstances warrant it, extend any one or more of those time limits.

(5) The time limits set out in subsections (1) and (2) do not apply in respect of a matter where the Law Enforcement Review Board has ordered under section 20(2) of the Act that a hearing or rehearing of the matter be conducted.
These timelines actually used to be even shorter. But as you can see above, the expectation is supposed to really be within 9 months from an accusation of misconduct, the hearing should be running and be completed without undue delay. (The fact that police commissions chronically grant extensions and what adequate resources for investigating police misconduct should actually look are lengthy topics on their own).

If the law is sparse on this issue one might ask if it is because it so rarely ever gets put to the test (because suspension without pay happens so rarely). That may well be a systemic problem, but it is not one that can fairly be blamed on the legislation or the courts.

And keep in mind one of the real consequences of unnecessarily deferring internal discipline to wait for criminal cases to be concluded (and not suspending without pay) is that the taxpayer gets to waste exorbitant amounts of money on a police officer that will ultimately be deemed impossible to be trusted to continue to be a police officer:

https://globalnews.ca/news/2509927/c...ving-incident/

So, perhaps instead of "Police Accountability Takes Time" the CPS should have issued a statement entitled something like "Time's up...Calgary Officers can no longer count on delays in being disciplined" with a byline - Current CPS Chief intends to use the legal tools already in place to put an end to deferred accountability of his officers.

Now that would make for an interesting and timely notification...
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Old 11-02-2020, 02:52 PM   #1249
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Great read, MBates, as ever.

A few questions, then, about the Dunn case in particular. Or perhaps not questions, but me wondering about the reasoning behind 'holding' this one.

It is easily argued that a case such as this should be held publicly, as it's in the public interest to hold it's police service accountable and there's no good reason for keeping it private.

But had it been held publicly, the video would have gotten out earlier, and, as you yourself mentioned, basically caught fire, which it could be argued by most any defense lawyer worth their salt (I would presume...?) that it's now impossible for their client (Dunn) to get a fair and unbiased trial.

Is that basically what happened here, or am I missing something?
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Old 11-02-2020, 06:05 PM   #1250
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Great read, MBates, as ever.

A few questions, then, about the Dunn case in particular. Or perhaps not questions, but me wondering about the reasoning behind 'holding' this one.

It is easily argued that a case such as this should be held publicly, as it's in the public interest to hold it's police service accountable and there's no good reason for keeping it private.

But had it been held publicly, the video would have gotten out earlier, and, as you yourself mentioned, basically caught fire, which it could be argued by most any defense lawyer worth their salt (I would presume...?) that it's now impossible for their client (Dunn) to get a fair and unbiased trial.

Is that basically what happened here, or am I missing something?
That would be one reason why a portion of a disciplinary hearing can be made private. If it really is seen that the graphic nature of the video could harm the right to a fair criminal trial the tendering of the video could be the only part made 'private' allowing the public to still know what happened in the discipline case, but to not yet see the video and send it around social media.

Not having any specific knowledge of any decision making in the Dunn case itself, I would say that the bolded above is not really the case. First of all, it presumes a jury trial (Dunn is being tried by Provincial Court Judge and judges are presumed to be able to disabuse their minds of any invalid information).

But the step then is for the accused to apply for a challenge for cause during jury selection to screen potential jurors to remove any that are shown to be not impartial due to pre-trial publicity. The idea that pre-trial publicity would render it impossible to have a fair trial is not one that can be expected to succeed.

Keep in mind, eventually in a jury trial the jurors themselves would see the video and if they were viewing it for the first time during the thing 'going viral' there would likely be a greater risk of a juror being influenced by contemporaneous media / social media than by them remembering that there were stories about the video many months earlier.

A decent and pretty short read on the issue is in this SCC case which dealt with pre-trial media publicity that occurred approximately 9 months prior to a criminal trial:

https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/sc...m/734/index.do
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Old 11-03-2020, 07:06 PM   #1251
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My friend got pulled over today because the cop didn't like her bumper sticker. He asked her to remove it then ran away when she asked to see his supervisor. It's not the worst grievance in the world but I find it wildly offensive and so annoying. If you can't do your job properly you should not be given the power to do it improperly.
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Old 11-03-2020, 07:18 PM   #1252
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My friend got pulled over today because the cop didn't like her bumper sticker. He asked her to remove it then ran away when she asked to see his supervisor. It's not the worst grievance in the world but I find it wildly offensive and so annoying. If you can't do your job properly you should not be given the power to do it improperly.
This is going to require way more detail than this.
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Old 11-03-2020, 07:21 PM   #1253
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My friend got pulled over today because the cop didn't like her bumper sticker. He asked her to remove it then ran away when she asked to see his supervisor. It's not the worst grievance in the world but I find it wildly offensive and so annoying. If you can't do your job properly you should not be given the power to do it improperly.
Ya. That's a tough one to believe. More deets!!!!
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Old 11-03-2020, 07:22 PM   #1254
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Yup. need more details.

If it's a "BLM" or "Defund the Police" sticker then yeah the cop was in the wrong.

If it was a "My kids an honor student at blah blah" then I fully support what the cop tried to do.
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Old 11-03-2020, 07:26 PM   #1255
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My friend got pulled over today because the cop didn't like her bumper sticker. He asked her to remove it then ran away when she asked to see his supervisor. It's not the worst grievance in the world but I find it wildly offensive and so annoying. If you can't do your job properly you should not be given the power to do it improperly.
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Old 11-03-2020, 07:36 PM   #1256
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This is going to require way more detail than this.

I don't really want to say what the sticker was other than it was a non political but very left leaning in spirit message that most everyone would agree with but that might offend some people...maybe some people from smaller towns without much diversity or religious people but not particular to or targeting either of those demographics. But really the bottom line is police using their position in power to even so much as offer an opinion on it is wildly offensive. Not to mention the waste of resources, the risk to traffic and the image it gives our officers. All bad, all the time.
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Old 11-03-2020, 08:17 PM   #1257
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So, the cop actually said "I'm pulling you over for your bumper sticker?"

Where did this happen?
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Old 11-03-2020, 08:30 PM   #1258
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So, the cop actually said "I'm pulling you over for your bumper sticker?"

Where did this happen?
It was a sheriff on the way to Okotoks. He said your bumper sticker is offensive and I'm asking you to remove it. She asked if she'd committed an offense. He said no but it is inappropriate and asked her again to remove it. She asked to speak to a supervisor. He said no and would let it go but that it was inappropriate and she should consider who reads it. She says that he left immediately and abruptly after asking for a supervisor. She's really young and was super scared so I think he may have felt like he could get his way. But ultimately he didnt want to pursue it unless she complied easily. He didnt ask for registration just her dl.

I think objectively the sticker is a bit shocking. But not at all illegal.
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Old 11-03-2020, 08:32 PM   #1259
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I don't really want to say what the sticker was other than it was a non political but very left leaning in spirit message that most everyone would agree with but that might offend some people...maybe some people from smaller towns without much diversity or religious people but not particular to or targeting either of those demographics. But really the bottom line is police using their position in power to even so much as offer an opinion on it is wildly offensive. Not to mention the waste of resources, the risk to traffic and the image it gives our officers. All bad, all the time.
?
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Old 11-04-2020, 05:00 AM   #1260
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I'm struggling to understand how a bumper sticker can be described in so much detail but not revealed in the discussion.
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