Climate change and human responsibility

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GGG

Buy switching to plant base your net calories per acre of plowed land increases. So any increase in plowed land required would need to be driven by increased food demand.

Yes, but how much is the needle moving there?

Asking people to give up too many things will just cause resistance. I think it would be more effective to pick battles selectively, focusing on the biggest impacts first. And there are far more effective hills to die on than this one.

Awareness is causing people to eat less meat, which is good. Force feeding people a vegetable diet is probably counter-productive at this point. Let's focus this battle on getting large scale farms to go fully grass-fed.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I am not convinced that eating less beef will help with climate change. In fact, it might actually contribute to climate change.

Livestock accounts for about 20% of total calories, takes up 80% of farm land. Loss of natural areas cleared for livestock is the #1 factor in mass extinction.

That's just scratching the surface.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, but how much is the needle moving there?

Asking people to give up too many things will just cause resistance. I think it would be more effective to pick battles selectively, focusing on the biggest impacts first. And there are far more effective hills to die on than this one.

Awareness is causing people to eat less meat, which is good. Force feeding people a vegetable diet is probably counter-productive at this point. Let's focus this battle on getting large scale farms to go fully grass-fed.

I agree, I don’t think individuals should make non-mandated changes to help the environment. Eating less meat for health reasons is probably a good idea.

[Ozy_Flame]

"I don't think individuals should make non-mandated changes to help the environment".

Then why bother recycling? Why both conserving water? Why bother using anything but single-use plastics? Why bother mulching your leaves? Why bother getting an energy-efficient furnace? Why bother collecting rainwater in a barrel in the backyard? Why bother bicycling to work rather than driving?

Why bother with any of these things?

Doing any of these things is not mandated by law, but people do them anyways.

Are people wrong?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

"I don't think individuals should make non-mandated changes to help the environment".

Then why bother recycling? Why both conserving water? Why bother using anything but single-use plastics? Why bother mulching your leaves? Why bother getting an energy-efficient furnace? Why bother collecting rainwater in a barrel in the backyard? Why bother bicycling to work rather than driving?

Why bother with any of these things?

Doing any of these things is not mandated by law, but people do them anyways.

Are people wrong?

Saving money, saving money, saving money, saving money. You may detect a pattern of success here...

[Ozy_Flame]

That may be why you do it, but it's not clear why everyone else would do it.

Also, if I'm not at my house, should I let the taps run for hours at the hotel? I'm not paying that water bill.

If saving money is the goal, then people should eat less red meat. The overhead it takes to pay for that steak isn't worth it anymore.

[Fuzz]

I'm just saying that in general, financial reasons are the primary reason we do things that may be altruistic. Which is why carbon taxes are the direction most countries are headed in. You can't change peoples behaviours just by asking them to. Maybe 10% of the population makes meaningful changes for those reasons.

[zamler]

Everyone is all about saving the planet until they have to change their own behaviour then they're all about, whoa whoa let's not get radical here.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm just saying that in general, financial reasons are the primary reason we do things that may be altruistic. Which is why carbon taxes are the direction most countries are headed in. You can't change peoples behaviours just by asking them to. Maybe 10% of the population makes meaningful changes for those reasons.

Explain recycling then.

Why do people recycle?

Why do people put organics in the green bins?

If I'm not caring about doing the right thing environmentally, should I just shovel everything into the garbage bin?

When I'm at the mall, why even bother using the waste/plastic/bottles disposal units?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Explain recycling then.

Why do people recycle?

Why do people put organics in the green bins?

If I'm not caring about doing the right thing environmentally, should I just shovel everything into the garbage bin?

When I'm at the mall, why even bother using the waste/plastic/bottles disposal units?

Most people recycle because there isn't room in their garbage, and it is convenient. Back when you had to drive recycling to a bin and there were no limits to garbage, rates were much lower.


As for the bins in malls, airports, and office buildings, have you ever looked in those things? It's a mixed disaster. Nobody cares.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

That may be why you do it, but it's not clear why everyone else would do it.

Also, if I'm not at my house, should I let the taps run for hours at the hotel? I'm not paying that water bill.

If saving money is the goal, then people should eat less red meat. The overhead it takes to pay for that steak isn't worth it anymore.

This goes to a much larger philosophical question of does altruism exist which would be its own separate thread?

Why would you leave the taps running at a hotel? I think the habit of shutting taps off likely compels your brain to shut off taps everywhere. I’m fairly certain that no one shuts off taps at hotels to save water. They would likely just continue to do whatever they were previously doing because it takes the least mental effort and there is no external cost.

Your second point nails it. If you want to reduce the consumption of red meat it needs to be priced at a point where people no longer get sufficient value from it to justify its purchase.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Explain recycling then.

Why do people recycle?

Why do people put organics in the green bins?

If I'm not caring about doing the right thing environmentally, should I just shovel everything into the garbage bin?

When I'm at the mall, why even bother using the waste/plastic/bottles disposal units?

Even for a lazy person recycling is pretty darn easy. It doesn't really affect you to put something in a different colored bin. It's simple and makes you feel like you've done something to help even though in many cases you haven't. (recall the recycling thread that told us it all goes to the dump)

[Ozy_Flame]

"Most people recycle because there isn't room in their garbage".

Care to provide the stats on that one?

Does organic mess - the leftovers on your plate - move the needle to switch from just the black bin to the the black and green bins?

That's a ridiculous stretch.

As for the malls, you're not going to get 100% public compliance, but you don't get that on anything with the public. People still sort their waste even if you see incorrect usage.

But why bother, right?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by chedder

Even for a lazy person recycling is pretty darn easy. It doesn't really affect you to put something in a different colored bin. It's simple and makes you feel like you've done something to help even though in many cases you haven't. (recall the recycling thread that told us it all goes to the dump)

Thank you for proving my point. When given the means to do it correctly, people can more easily make the choice.

And when you drop that plastic into the recycling bin, you know at a cerebral level that is where it's supposed to go to help sort non-degradable materials from other types.

How recycling material is handled is another matter and based on jurisdiction and scenario. The more important point is the user is using enough logic to make the switch and does so with the correct environmental intentions.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

"Most people recycle because there isn't room in their garbage".

Care to provide the stats on that one?

Does organic mess - the leftovers on your plate - move the needle to switch from just the black bin to the the black and green bins?

That's a ridiculous stretch.

As for the malls, you're not going to get 100% public compliance, but you don't get that on anything with the public. People still sort their waste even if you see incorrect usage.

But why bother, right?

I'm not saying "why bother" personally. I'm a great human being and do my bit. But I've realized many others don't give a crap about it. Just throwing it out there and expecting people to take part is not going to lead to success. Do people think about the environmental damage of their massive vehicles, or do they think "I want this, so I'm gonna buy it"? If it was a very small proportion of people who thought this way, you'd see many small vehicles on the road. But we don't. The evidence is all around you, asking nicely doesn't work. I think you are just not cynical enough about humans. They are the worst.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Explain recycling then.

Why do people recycle?

Why do people put organics in the green bins?

If I'm not caring about doing the right thing environmentally, should I just shovel everything into the garbage bin?

When I'm at the mall, why even bother using the waste/plastic/bottles disposal units?

If you look at the malls they have added garbage sorters to ensure waste is sorted properly. They have added garbage sorters because the city will fine them if they don’t have proper waste diversion.

Recycling is a good example of how the brainwashing by oil companies and huge dollars were spent to influence opinions at the societal level which creates social pressure and societal expectations to recycle. We are still terrible at it. People don’t choose to recycle for good, they choose to recycle because they feel shame if they don’t. And when people aren’t watched they are terrible at it. Also recycling allows for guilt free consumption.

Also compare recycling rates of deposit bearing glass, meta and plastic to non deposit bearing glass metal and plastic and you can see recycling not being driven by altruism.

Why doesn’t reduce or reuse carry the same level of societal pressure that recycling does. Why are things continually packaged terribly. A system was created to make plastics in particular look better. It was named recycling, it was very effective.

So solutions to global warming need to come from widespread propaganda programs and cost signals not from individuals choosing to do better and for Propagada to work the cost to change must be minimal and not involve any real sacrifice on the user. Otherwise sacrifice needs to be legislated.

[Enoch Root]

I don't think people do all those things just to save money, I think there is very much a desire to 'do better'.

However, I would also say that all those things are pretty easy to do, and none of them materially detract from lifestyle and personal comfort. The one exception being biking to work, which, not surprisingly, is no where near as universally adopted (because it is a much more significant personal sacrifice - especially in cold climates)

As for eating meat, I agree that reducing consumption is pretty easy - especially since it is good for you, and probably saves money. However, cutting out meat entirely, would be a pretty big sacrifice for most people, and as a result, is unlikely to happen without significant resistance.

[flamesfever]

Money is behind everything...even those who like to think they are doing things to fight Climate Change.

When you think about the solar business. Who is going to put solar panels on their roof, when it takes 10 to 20 years to pay out, along with all the other problems e.g. snow, hail, recycling, climbing up on the roof, etc.

When you think about the ev market. Who is going to buy the evs with all the downsides e.g. more expensive, short travel range, time to fill up, recycling, traffic jams, accidents. etc. Maybe, and that's a big maybe, we can eventually get the percentage up to 40 or 50% of cars being evs, if every family eventually owns one of two vehicles. I can't see many people outside the large city areas owning one.

And what about the cost for electricity. Do you not thing that will rise to offset the huge expenditure to expand the grid.

The whole situation these days is a huge effort to make money in different ways.

And Canada, with it's cold climate, is the last place on earth that should be considering battery operated vehicles.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Thank you for proving my point. When given the means to do it correctly, people can more easily make the choice.

I think this is everyone’s point.

Individuals won’t make a sacrifice to do good. If there is no sacrifice and no benefit people will do it poorly.

[Ozy_Flame]

Some of you are really overthinking this. People just put their empty bottle in the recycling bin and their sandwich wrapper in the waste bin at the park because they know it's better for the environment to do so rather than leave it on the ground.

That's an individual choice that happens made with logical, reason, and foresight.

Evil O/G schemes to make money, not turning taps off for conserving water, globalist propaganda, electric vehicles are a waste of time even though the majority of people living in cities . . .

Wow. I had no idea everyone has the inside scoop.

And people don't make sacrifices to do good?

Ask yourself why anyone would buy food with their own money for a hungry family at a shelter. Why anyone would donate a kidney or other organs to save others. Why anyone would rescue a person or an animal in distress at the potential cost of their own safety.

I say no. Humanity is better than that.