Are tanking and blowing it up worthwhile?

[Loob12]

Realistically, i would argue that they need a shakeup with a coach. Its not acceptable that this team is inconsistent. Would we have the same result if the coach was say Daryl Sutter?

I would keep the lines as :
Johnny - Mony - Lindhold
Tkachuk - Backs - Mangi
Lucic - Bennett - Dube
mix and match the 4th line...maybe bring up a couple of young player for the energy.

[flames_fan_down_under]

PepsiFree, respectfully the Colorado re-tool is a tough comparison only because they already had Nate Mackinnon, Matt Duchene and Gabe Landeskog, which they acquired basically via tanking during their rebuild, unless that's what you were referring to as a "re-tool"?

Anyways I think this team is already so bad that moving a couple big pieces would essentially be a "rebuild" in that we will be a bottom of the league team, and essentially be tanking.

That is also what needs to happen though, and Brad Treliving should not be the guy in charge of this process.

Treliving took too long to address the major issues of this team and tried to patch holes with average NHLers hoping that he would be able to tread water with guys like Brouwer and Neal etc. He finally figured out the goalie issue but his process in acquiring a coach has left A LOT to be desired. He had a couple home runs in acquiring Dougie Hamilton, then subsequently flipping him for Lindholm and Hanifin, and of course drafting Tkachuk was great.

Moves that severely damaged the trajectory of the Flames : Hamonic, Neal, Lucic, Brouwer, losing TJ Brodie for nothing, losing copious amounts of mid round picks for guys like Forbort, Gustaffson, Fantenberg, Lazar and Stone. We were trading away picks during a time when we should have been continuing to stock the developmental pool.

Frankly BT built this team we are looking at right now and it is a really really bad team. They're certainly not a very determined group, the coaching is third rate and they're extremely boring to watch. Nevermind the prospect pool is shallow and we are a team at the cap.

This team has some very nice pieces to build around. Tkachuk, Markstrom, Valimaki. I don't see any reason why the team should wait to start this process, it should begin now.

Clean house from top to bottom. Trade away the core elements of the locker room, Monahan, Gaudreau, Backlund, Giordano, Lindholm. Acquire young talent and high picks. Rebuild properly.

[Flamesfan05]

No reason to keep trying if it’s not working

Tank or not, I don’t care because it doesn’t matter

A rebuild is needed

[442scotty]

They need to do something before the team drags two pretty good goalies into their lack of effort black hole and ruin them

[DeluxeMoustache]

Yeah, I don’t know Markstrom personally, or anything.

However, I can pretty confidently say he didn’t come here to be with his buddy Lindholm so he could piss away the chance to win for 6 years

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I think it's a huge mistake. We have a legitimate starting goaltender for the first time in a long time, we have multiple younger guys that are the exact type you'd want to gain from a rebuild, and we have at least a few prospects that have a legitimate shot of becoming NHL regulars.

A retool? Sure, but I wouldn't touch the scorched earth approach. Take the Colorado approach and shake up the core a bit, bring in a solid coach, and go from there.

I would be fine with the Flames trading one of their top three forwards for picks and prospects under the age of 20.

[Inferno]

Nope, get a legit coach first and then retool from there.

[FlamesAddiction]

It's almost impossible to blow it up these days. Blowing it up suggests dumping your big contracts and wiping the slate clean.

The salary cap just doesn't let you do that. The best you can do is get rid of as many as possible and make some lateral moves that prove to have addition by subtraction, or untapped potential.

I hat the word "re-tooling", but that is pretty much it.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I'm on the fence on this issue.

On one hand I see that tanking and acquiring an elite player in the draft has about a 60/40 success ratio. Plenty of teams figure it out that way, but there are lots of cautionary tales of it not working as well.

However, when teams retool successfully they often can do so because they have a foundation of that superstar talent to stick lesser players with. That often elevates those lesser players to star status.

I don't think the Flames have a player in the lines of Crosby, MacKinnon, or even this year's example of a successful retool, Barkov.

I hate to say it, but I think the only way the Flames get good for a decade or two is to tank and acquire that star talent. However, I will happily move half our roster for Eichel to start building around him. It might accelerate the process to have a guy who is already an established NHLer.

[Erick Estrada]

Well they are playing themselves into a high lottery pick so you can argue they are tanking even if it's unintentional.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well they are playing themselves into a high lottery pick so you can argue they are tanking even if it's unintentional.

It's so Flames to be doing it this year too. Year of the throw a dart draft.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by nik-

It's so Flames to be doing it this year too. Year of the throw a dart draft.

lol

They'll probably miss the playoffs, win the draft lottery, and then pick Bennett V2.0 first overall while Boston picks an MVP caliber winger in the 20's and Tampa gets a future star #1C in the 3rd round.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

lol

They'll probably miss the playoffs, win the draft lottery, and then pick Bennett V2.0 first overall while Boston picks an MVP caliber winger in the 20's and Tampa gets a future star #1C in the 3rd round.

This guy Flames

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

lol

They'll probably miss the playoffs, win the draft lottery, and then pick Bennett V2.0 first overall while Boston picks an MVP caliber winger in the 20's and Tampa gets a future star #1C in the 3rd round.

Sounds about right

[stang]

I think being bad and then winning within 2-4 years like pits and Chicago is not the norm.

You look at the other examples you mentioned, like Washington and Tampa bay they had top end elite picks (Ov stamkos) it just took a bit to put it all together.

[Flamescuprun2018]

Perhaps not a popular view but I would like to see a one off season retool with BT at the helm. Might be a blessing in disguise for us in long run (eternal optimist).

I feel like he has learned from his UFA signing and trade mistakes and is now a seasoned GM. His salary negotiation skills are elite. I have liked every one of his RFA signings (almost always lower than expected). Also really like the draft and development program he has built.

Most recently his recent UFA signings since Neal have been fine/great and his most recent major trade for Lucic has turned out fine.

This down year opens a window for the organization to move Gaudreau and Monahan at the trade deadline (when value is highest) if we are out of the playoff picture. Not possible if we are in the playoff picture as would create a revolt from fan base.

My greatest fear is that we get nothing for Gaudreau before he moves out East at free agency. The team might as well offer up Gio as well for something given he is entering the steep decline stage of his career anyways. Gio would come at a premium at trade deadline as a sure top 4 only a year removed from Norris. D depth for a contender.

Also sell if you can any depth forwards and even Rittich (since free agent anyways at end of season) for late round picks. Bennett, Ryan and possibly Leivo? Bennett most likely to fetch a 2nd at trade deadline given his playoff pedigree.

The cap space created could also be parlayed into another pick. The wild card in all this is expansion draft. But perhaps BT can figure out how to help some other teams in a deal by taking something back with high salary for a year while our cap can accommodate.

For all his limitations I do have faith in BT to get the most out of each move (by working the phones tirelessly). Would be interesting to see BT wizardry at work if green light to retool.

Chucky/Lindy/Backlund/Mang/Dube/Ras/Valimaki/Hanifan/Tanev/Markstrom are plenty core pieces to retool around. Pelletier very likely fits into top 9 by next year and there is Lucic for two more years who is exceeding expectations this season. No sense doing the full blowup and rebuild.

[nik-]

That quick of a turnaround is rare and yeah, Pittsburgh and Chicago doing it so close to each other ruined the perception of what tanking does. But it's pretty clear you usually need to draft high in a good year to get that elite center that every winner has.

You land that, and at least you're able to build more organically into a legit solid playoff team.

At this point I'd even take that. I want this team to win but at least give us a team that is a real playoff contender and not just the "barely in and then right out mixed with years of missing" treadmill

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by nik-

It's so Flames to be doing it this year too. Year of the throw a dart draft.

And in a year where the expansion draft practically guarantees we will lose a young cost effective player.

Pandemic issues making transactions difficult.
Expansion draft.
Unimpressive draft.


This is just so Calgary Flames, you have to laugh.

[Fuzz]

I don't see any reason why you would throw it all away and setup a new core before getting a new couch and hearing his vision, and maybe a new GM. I don't think you need to tank in the mean time. No point in devaluing your assets.

[ComixZone]

Yes, it’s worth it - I’d even say that it’s crucial to meaningful success.

No, it doesn’t mean it’s the cure all. You need to tank and bottom out, get multiple high picks including a high end centre (think top 3), and then also have a very good GM who executes at a high level that not only hires a high end coach, but also manages the cap extremely well so that you aren’t over encumbered with big dollars on mediocre talent. You also have to understand that not all draft years are made equally, so even if you draft high in one year, it may not be the year to do it. It should be a multiple year effort to tank to hedge against poor draft years (unless you absolutely hit a home run like Toronto lucked into with Matthews).