The fall of Monahan, and the fall of the Flames

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by t0rrent98

I didn't realize Monahan is currently the Flames active franchise leading goal scorer with 196 goals.

Well only Gio and Backlund have been on the Flames longer. Gio is a defenseman and Backlund didn't become an impact player until 2012/2013.

More impressive is the fact that Monahan leads the 2013 draft in goals. Ahead of MacKinnon and Barkov. He also has more goals and points than anyone from the 2012 draft.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Well, here is a funny thing. The Sedins got a ton of o zone starts and they were some of the best at cycling that we have seen.

When Johnny, Monny and Lindholm were lighting up the league, they were scoring a lot off the rush.

Rushes don’t start in the o zone

I’d hazard a guess that the majority of Monahan goals are cycled. It’s certainly the classic Gaudreau to Monahan goal you’d picture. Though his deadliest goals I can recall are on semi-breaks down the left side.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Right, but how confident are you that Monahan is actually going to finish the season by scoring only six more goals?


Monahan is still out-pacing Horvat, despite the fact that he is also suffering through the lowest shot-conversion rate of his entire career. Until he manages to consistently out-produce him, then I think observations that Horvat has not passed Monahan will persist.

Well like I said in my post, Monahan and his line generally don’t have a problem scoring in the regular season, so I’m not too concerned at all. The problem is when calendar flips though and their line goes ice cold. I remember one remark in the bubble when an intermission analyst said their line “looked like they had never even played together before,” which was a real concern because it was Lindholm-Monahan-Gaudreau.

So I’m not worried about these guys right now, if anything it’s the new Treliving signings that need to be pick it up. But I think this is the last shot with this current core or at least with the way it’s currently constructed. If they make noise in the spring or worse, even get into the playoffs, some will absolutely be gone.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Well only Gio and Backlund have been on the Flames longer. Gio is a defenseman and Backlund didn't become an impact player until 2012/2013.

More impressive is the fact that Monahan leads the 2013 draft in goals. Ahead of MacKinnon and Barkov. He also has more goals and points than anyone from the 2012 draft.

It is good enough for #15 in League-wide scoring since his rookie season in 2013. Monahan also ranks #33 in points recorded over that same period of time.

Monahan is a pretty good player.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well like I said in my post, Monahan and his line generally don’t have a problem scoring in the regular season, so I’m not too concerned at all. The problem is when calendar flips though and their line goes ice cold...

You make it sound in your earlier posts as though Horvat has distinguished himself as obviously superior to Monahan as a result of his playoff performances, and yet I cannot help but notice that both Horvat and Monahan have virtually identical scoring percentages @ 0.7 pts/GP. Monahan even out-paced Horvat in his playoff-scoring rate in 2020 with 8 points in 10 games, compared to Horvat's 12 in 17. Monahan had a really bad playoff series in 2019, but apart from that one outlier he has consistently been one of the Flames's best performers every other post-season, and last year was no exception.

Yeah, I get that production is not everything—Horvat is the captain of his team, and oozes GRIT™ and toughness et al. But I have to think that given Monahan's pretty consistent showing through most of his playoff career that they are much, much closer to equal than you will admit. If anything, I sure think it nullifies any notion that Horvat has passed Monahan. It seems to me that he may not even be on his level, to say nothing for having passed him.

[GS Skier]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It is good enough for #15 in League-wide scoring since his rookie season in 2013. Monahan also ranks #33 in points recorded over that same period of time.

Monahan is a pretty good player.

It's amazing if you look at it from a 31 team point of view. 16 teams haven't had a guy as good as Monahan!

I really watch positional play in our end and especially in that last game Monahan did every bit as good a job helping the defensemen as Backlund and Lindholm. It was great to see wingers NOT panicking and leaving their assignments to keep an eye on the points, slot and to make the breakouts work. They really were good as a team in our end!

Hope they can do it again and squeak this out.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Horvat is interesting, the difference being that he is second line centre and does not have to play against the other teams best player, Patterson gets that. Even before he got to play behind the Sedins. He has always been a sheltered player.

Monahan would be a 50 goal scorer with the Canucks.

Peterson plays against the other teams best defensive line.

Horvat plays against the other teams best line.

That’s why Chicago didn’t play Toews and Kane on the same line. Toews played against the other team’s best line.

The “numbering” of the line is not relevant.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Harry Lime]

I'm starting to like Ottawa quite a bit as a team, mostly because they are the only fanbase that doesn't think that their second and third tier players are ultra mega superstars compared to the glorified minor league players littering the Flames roster.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

If anything, I sure think it nullifies any notion that Horvat has passed Monahan. It seems to me that he may not even be on his level, to say nothing for having passed him.

I want to add how pointless and ridiculous it is to compare the two players. The only similarities they have in their games is the position they play. They're both utilized differently, have completely different game styles, etc...

Every team could use both of these players in top six roles.

[keeper34]

Monahan is our new Neal.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by keeper34

Monahan is our new Neal.

No.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by David Struch

People said Joe Sakic was too soft to win the Cup.
(until he wasn't, in his 8th season)

People also said Steve Yzerman wasn't good enough to lead his team to the Cup.
(until he did, in his 14th season)

And Ovechkin, too, and many others... the difference was that while they were struggling to find playoff success they were still among the top players in the league year in and year out. This is not a reasonable comparison to who Sean Monahan is.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You make it sound in your earlier posts as though Horvat has distinguished himself as obviously superior to Monahan as a result of his playoff performances, and yet I cannot help but notice that both Horvat and Monahan have virtually identical scoring percentages @ 0.7 pts/GP. Monahan even out-paced Horvat in his playoff-scoring rate in 2020 with 8 points in 10 games, compared to Horvat's 12 in 17. Monahan had a really bad playoff series in 2019, but apart from that one outlier he has consistently been one of the Flames's best performers every other post-season, and last year was no exception.

Yeah, I get that production is not everything—Horvat is the captain of his team, and oozes GRIT™ and toughness et al. But I have to think that given Monahan's pretty consistent showing through most of his playoff career that they are much, much closer to equal than you will admit. If anything, I sure think it nullifies any notion that Horvat has passed Monahan. It seems to me that he may not even be on his level, to say nothing for having passed him.

Yes I said I believe Horvat has surpassed Monahan. That playoff performance was what leadership is all about. He drove the bus and helped will his team to victory over the Wild in the play in round and then against the defending champs in the first round. While he was doing that, Monahan and Gaudreau were having another piss poor playoff round this time against the Dallas Stars. You continue to talk about point totals, but Monahan and Gaudreau’s numbers were extremely flattering. They may have taken advantage on the powerplay, much like the Anaheim series in 2017 as well, but their play at even strength was absolutely abysmal and was a huge reason why this team was ousted.

Back to Horvat though, the conversation between him and Monahan go far beyond points. It’s really not even a fair comparison in a lot of ways because they play different roles. Monahan plays in a scoring role with an elite playmaker in Gaudreau and he gets sheltered minutes with crazy high offensive zone starts so they don’t get buried on the cycle in the defensive end.

Horvat on the other hand plays the exact opposite role. He plays against the tougher matchups, gets buried in defensive zone starts and generally plays with Tanner Pearson at even strength, yet is still able to produce on non scoring role. He skates better then Monahan and he’s hard to play against. He’s like a Mikael Backlund with better goal scoring ability. All this plus his playoff prowess is why I’d personally take Horvat over Monahan. To each their own though.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

No.

He's a lot closer to Neal than he would be Horvat.

Horvat's motor and drive alone is worth spades over the warm milk intensity level of Sean Monahan. The fact Horvat works like you'd expect an NHL player to work, and can, you know, create the odd play himself, makes it pretty glaring who the better player is.

You simply don't win with players like Sean Monahan as anything more than complementary parts, and I think we'll all see clearly how poorly the league values him when he's eventually moved for very little in return.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

He's a lot closer to Neal than he would be Horvat...

Good god. Just stop.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

You simply don't win with players like Sean Monahan...

That became evident during his time with Ottawa of the Ontario Hockey League. With Ottawa facing playoff elimination in the 2011-12 season, Monahan, the team captain, sustained a back injury.

The team didn't bring his equipment to the rink the next day, assuming he'd be out for the rest of the playoffs, but Monahan not only played, he scored twice.

https://www.nhl.com/player/sean-monahan-8477497#bio

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

https://www.nhl.com/player/sean-monahan-8477497#bio

The real nugget here, going back to my original point, is that Monahan had back issues dating back almost 10 years (I was unaware of that). He has missed time as a Flame confirmed too as a result of back problems. There may well be some chronic component of his back problems, as it’s common for people with back issues to either have continued pain, limitation and/or hesitation. He really does play like he is hindered.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

the real nugget here, going back to my original point, is that monahan had back issues dating back almost 10 years (i was unaware of that). He has missed time as a flame confirmed too as a result of back problems. There may well be some chronic component of his back problems, as it’s common for people with back issues to either have continued pain, limitation and/or hesitation. He really does play like he is hindered.

.... ####. This makes sense.

[Nsd1]

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

The real nugget here, going back to my original point, is that Monahan had back issues dating back almost 10 years (I was unaware of that). He has missed time as a Flame confirmed too as a result of back problems. There may well be some chronic component of his back problems, as it’s common for people with back issues to either have continued pain, limitation and/or hesitation. He really does play like he is hindered.

I said it jokingly in the GT for the game he returned against the Leafs but I actually do think Monahan would benefit from some type of NBA style load management. The last few years we seem to see that his injuries pile up towards the end of the season leaving him ineffective. If this becomes a nothing season I hope they shut him down for a bit.

[Hackey]

Looch 5 goals. Monahan 3 goals. Sad times as a Flames fan.