The fall of Monahan, and the fall of the Flames

[2macinnis2]

It's undeniable this team, that was on a multi-year trajectory to run away with the Western Conference until February of 2019, is now in free fall. These threads have covered multiple factors that have contributed: coaching, lack of impactful in season trades, poor compete from the top end group. I can't help but think that the team still has a really nice roster. There are multiple factors, but to me the single greatest factor in the fall of the Flames from competing with the elites is the fall of Sean Monahan.

I've been an ardent Monahan supporter over the years, and at the beginning of the 18-19 season I even wrote here the jury was out on who would turn out better between him and MacKinnon (go back, it really wasn't clear then). I think there is uniform agreement on these boards that you CANNOT win big without a top end (top 10 maybe) #1 center. In his first few seasons, that was Monahan's trajectory. It was no accident that his best hockey was played in the first 75% of the 18-19 season, when the Flames were also as a group peaking. He was terrific and improving every year since the Flames drafted him. Then something happened.

There are a few possibilities. Maybe he was figured out to some extent, and his compete level has definitely dropped. It was my worry when it happened in 2019, and still is, that Monahan has a chronic health/injury problem that has derailed his career. Monahan has a history of back issues which kept him out for long stretches in the past, and I remember well how marginalized he appeared when he returned after being out with the "thumb" injury in the 2019 playoffs. At that time, I was pretty convinced that it was his back/core that was his problem, not his thumb. That is a very difficult problem to shake for many people/athletes. Disclaimer: I am a medical person but this I'm writing this purely as a fan and what I see as a fan, I have no inside medical knowledge of any of the Flames' health or injury history!

In any case, ever since then Monahan simply has not been a #1 center. Lindholm is a very good and capable #2. Backlund is a fine #3. But this team has not had a #1 center since Monahan was injured in 2019. The Flames have mostly played Monahan as a #1 center even though right now he is probably one of the 5-10 worst top centers in the NHL. I see this as the biggest reason the team has faltered.

Top centers are hard to find. There are only a couple of truly elite elites, and that probably isn't necessary TBH. The Flames needed Monahan to be at least as good as a Schiefle or ROR or something, but to me this seems very unlikely to happen, and again I think it is because chronic injury moreso than his ability (I do think at his best Monahan was a level better than Lindholm or even Schiefle, and clearly a top 10 center in the league).

I didn't really start this thread to offer a solution... I think this just stinks as a great young player's career has seemingly gone way off course. I wrote this more to just point out my long-standing observation as to why everything has seemingly fallen apart.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I've been waiting for a thread like this to come along. I knew that as soon as Monahan dedicated himself to playing the game that people were whining about - better defensively, more physical, more dedicated to being a two way center - that his offensive production would change and with it perceptions of him. It's funny because people were warned that if Monahan changed his game that people would not be happy with probable outcomes. Well here we are with the "new and improved" Sean Monahan and people are upset with the outcome.

Monahan's game is way better this year. He is doing everything people demanded of him. He's way better defensively, he's playing with more of an edge, and he is dedicated to being a two way center. He has achieved that and everyone should be happy as result. But no. Now people are whining because his game has changed? Of course he was going to see his offensive production drop. When you're being Mr. Responsibility and focusing on your own end first your offense is going to dry up a bit. When you are expected to maintain your defensive responsibilities you are not going to go hunting for the soft spots are then going to turn into more of a passer than a shooter. When you are more focused on being more physical you are going to open yourself up to more little injuries here and there especially when you're deeper in your zone and getting in the way more. This is the outcome expected from a player making the change demanded by the fans and the coaches.

You want the offensive Sean Monahan back, then get him a winger who can be the defensive conscience on the line a la Lindholm. Otherwise stop your whining and accept the new Sean Monahan. He's doing what so many have demanded of him with expected results.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by New Era

I've been waiting for a thread like this to come along. I knew that as soon as Monahan dedicated himself to playing the game that people were whining about - better defensively, more physical, more dedicated to being a two way center - that his offensive production would change and with it perceptions of him. It's funny because people were warned that if Monahan changed his game that people would not be happy with probable outcomes. Well here we are with the "new and improved" Sean Monahan and people are upset with the outcome.

Monahan's game is way better this year. He is doing everything people demanded of him. He's way better defensively, he's playing with more of an edge, and he is dedicated to being a two way center. He has achieved that and everyone should be happy as result. But no. Now people are whining because his game has changed? Of course he was going to see his offensive production drop. When you're being Mr. Responsibility and focusing on your own end first your offense is going to dry up a bit. When you are expected to maintain your defensive responsibilities you are not going to go hunting for the soft spots are then going to turn into more of a passer than a shooter. When you are more focused on being more physical you are going to open yourself up to more little injuries here and there especially when you're deeper in your zone and getting in the way more. This is the outcome expected from a player making the change demanded by the fans and the coaches.

You want the offensive Sean Monahan back, then get him a winger who can be the defensive conscience on the line a la Lindholm. Otherwise stop your whining and accept the new Sean Monahan. He's doing what so many have demanded of him with expected results.

Monahan' from 2nd season to 2018-19 he actually was a career plus-player. This past 2 years he's actually a minus. Let's not forget how absolutely dynamite his line was in that #1 seed season, that my opinion is short-changing how good he was. But I don't think it's a stretch to say he hasn't been nearly as dynamic since he went out that season late with injury and came back hobbled in the playoffs.

[FanIn80]

Flames are averaging exactly one goal per game without Monahan in the lineup this season.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by New Era

I've been waiting for a thread like this to come along. I knew that as soon as Monahan dedicated himself to playing the game that people were whining about - better defensively, more physical, more dedicated to being a two way center - that his offensive production would change and with it perceptions of him. It's funny because people were warned that if Monahan changed his game that people would not be happy with probable outcomes. Well here we are with the "new and improved" Sean Monahan and people are upset with the outcome.

Monahan's game is way better this year. He is doing everything people demanded of him. He's way better defensively, he's playing with more of an edge, and he is dedicated to being a two way center. He has achieved that and everyone should be happy as result. But no. Now people are whining because his game has changed? Of course he was going to see his offensive production drop. When you're being Mr. Responsibility and focusing on your own end first your offense is going to dry up a bit. When you are expected to maintain your defensive responsibilities you are not going to go hunting for the soft spots are then going to turn into more of a passer than a shooter. When you are more focused on being more physical you are going to open yourself up to more little injuries here and there especially when you're deeper in your zone and getting in the way more. This is the outcome expected from a player making the change demanded by the fans and the coaches.

You want the offensive Sean Monahan back, then get him a winger who can be the defensive conscience on the line a la Lindholm. Otherwise stop your whining and accept the new Sean Monahan. He's doing what so many have demanded of him with expected results.

Lol I think they need Monahan to do both, not one or the other

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

Maybe he’s been traded, and they’re waiting for the quarantine period to be over before announcing it. I’m kidding. I think he’s been decent. Obviously could have a few more goals, but this teams problems are beyond Monahan. Biggest issue is defense and turnovers in my mind

[Itse]

Monahan can't shoot the puck the way he used to. This has been obvious for a while. Without that elite shot, he's basically another Backlund, although he has a way to go to get as good defensively.

[Teroy]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Lol I think they need Monahan to do both, not one or the other

Oh, and I guess the same could be said of his winger who won't go in the corners, is constantly a cherry picker and coughs up the puck more than anyone on the team.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Teroy

Oh, and I guess the same could be said of his winger who won't go in the corners, is constantly a cherry picker and coughs up the puck more than anyone on the team.

Yes, and your point?

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Lol I think they need Monahan to do both, not one or the other

This is really the crux of the issue. There's a colossal difference between a 70-80 point C who's a liability defensively and in transition, and a 70-80 point C that's a factor in all three zones. If playing defence consistently makes Monahan a 40-50 point player that tells you a lot about how he was scoring those points.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Lol I think they need Monahan to do both, not one or the other

That isn't a possibility. No center does both with a high level of success. If you want offense, the defensive side of the puck is going to suffer. If you want defense, the offensive side of the puck is going to suffer. It is the balance of the position. The secret is finding the balance where you can accept certain levels of defensive awareness and offensive production. You're not going to get a 30-40 goal centerman that is some defensive stalwart. Doesn't happen.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by New Era

That isn't a possibility. No center does both with a high level of success. If you want offense, the defensive side of the puck is going to suffer. If you want defense, the offensive side of the puck is going to suffer. It is the balance of the position. The secret is finding the balance where you can accept certain levels of defensive awareness and offensive production. You're not going to get a 30-40 goal centerman that is some defensive stalwart. Doesn't happen.

New Era, honest question: production aside, does Monahan look physically to you as the same player he was in 2014-2019?

To me he does not, that was my original point.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by New Era

That isn't a possibility. No center does both with a high level of success. If you want offense, the defensive side of the puck is going to suffer. If you want defense, the offensive side of the puck is going to suffer. It is the balance of the position. The secret is finding the balance where you can accept certain levels of defensive awareness and offensive production. You're not going to get a 30-40 goal centerman that is some defensive stalwart. Doesn't happen.

Well, when I said both I mean excellent at one and adequate at the other. Not excellent at both. Right now he is good at one and terrible at the other.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by New Era

That isn't a possibility. No center does both with a high level of success. If you want offense, the defensive side of the puck is going to suffer. If you want defense, the offensive side of the puck is going to suffer. It is the balance of the position. The secret is finding the balance where you can accept certain levels of defensive awareness and offensive production. You're not going to get a 30-40 goal centerman that is some defensive stalwart. Doesn't happen.

Meet 2x Selke winner, and perennial 30-goal center Sergei Fedorov.

https://www.nhl.com/player/sergei-fe...hl&season=null

[TheSquatch]

I have no analytics, no nothing to back up this quasi-opinion, but could it just be that Monahan hasn't changed at all, and the game has? Is the game simply being played at a faster pace because the MacKinnons and McDavids are driving it that way?

Monny isn't the slowest guy, but he's not the fastest either. If the Flames are built with guys like Monahan and Tkachuk, then they have line after line that just isn't fast enough to compete, to play effectively on both ends of the ice. Bennett's another.

Mangiapane and Dube have another gear, Johnny is tricky, he's not super fast but he's quick. But the rest of the team is still ploddish. Add Gio slowing down this year, Tanev instead of a fleet-footed Brody... and the defense isn't skating where it was either (and I'd suggest Rasmus has taken a step away from his best game too, seems eager to get rid of the puck rather than skate with it).

Monahan has never been an elite center, he's been good, and he's worked on important stuff - faceoffs and defense. But I agree, he hasn't looked "right" in a long while.

If that's so, then the Flames really look like a team built from complimentary pieces. There is no "core" right now.

[Red]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Flames are averaging exactly one goal per game without Monahan in the lineup this season.

Ya, but that's a small sample size. He has 4 goals in the last 36 games.

2 PP, 1 EN and 1 5-5 goal

The guy is struggling. Assists are nice, but he does play a lot of minutes, especially on the PP, the assists are a given.

People that make him out to be a playmaker because os his statsheet this year are missing a point. More assists than goals does not mean he changed his game and is some playmaker now. It means he is struggling to score goals.

[Red]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

I have no analytics, no nothing to back up this quasi-opinion, but could it just be that Monahan hasn't changed at all, and the game has? Is the game simply being played at a faster pace because the MacKinnons and McDavids are driving it that way?

Monny isn't the slowest guy, but he's not the fastest either. If the Flames are built with guys like Monahan and Tkachuk, then they have line after line that just isn't fast enough to compete, to play effectively on both ends of the ice. Bennett's another.

Mangiapane and Dube have another gear, Johnny is tricky, he's not super fast but he's quick. But the rest of the team is still ploddish. Add Gio slowing down this year, Tanev instead of a fleet-footed Brody... and the defense isn't skating where it was either (and I'd suggest Rasmus has taken a step away from his best game too, seems eager to get rid of the puck rather than skate with it).

Monahan has never been an elite center, he's been good, and he's worked on important stuff - faceoffs and defense. But I agree, he hasn't looked "right" in a long while.

If that's so, then the Flames really look like a team built from complimentary pieces. There is no "core" right now.

He is up there for sure. And I agree, the game got faster while he has not.

[Kovaz]

Deleted, stat was wrong

[David Struch]

People said Joe Sakic was too soft to win the Cup.
(until he wasn't, in his 8th season)

People also said Steve Yzerman wasn't good enough to lead his team to the Cup.
(until he did, in his 14th season)

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Red

Ya, but that's a small sample size. He has 4 goals in the last 36 games.

2 PP, 1 EN and 1 5-5 goal

The guy is struggling. Assists are nice, but he does play a lot of minutes, especially on the PP, the assists are a given.

People that make him out to be a playmaker because os his statsheet this year are missing a point. More assists than goals does not mean he changed his game and is some playmaker now. It means he is struggling to score goals.

But he's a threat that needs to be covered. The point is it's easier to shut down our offense when he's not dressed.