Brad Treliving needs to go

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That was my recollection of the story. If I’m wrong, my bad. It seemed pretty clear what he was getting at. He still had a point, even if it wasn’t concussions.

Now do Sarich, O'Brien, et al. I know you want to think the best of Hartley but there’s too much smoke for me. Name another cup winning coach that has had as little traction in the league. Even Crawford has had more gigs and is at least still an assistant.

Could also be that Hartley has no desire to be an assistant coach. Thus, chooses to go to places where he is in charge.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by soulchoice

Could also be that Hartley has no desire to be an assistant coach. Thus, chooses to go to places where he is in charge.

Could be, I guess, but I doubt it. He’s had one mini interview that I’ve ever heard of, and that was because the GM of the Habs happened to be in Russia scouting players (and it was a story by Georges Laraque, who is pretty unreliable anyway). If he ever wanted to be an NHL coach again, he’d want an AC gig.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That was my recollection of the story. If I’m wrong, my bad. It seemed pretty clear what he was getting at. He still had a point, even if it wasn’t concussions.

Now do Sarich, O'Brien, et al. I know you want to think the best of Hartley but there’s too much smoke for me. Name another cup winning coach that has had as little traction in the league. Even Crawford has had more gigs and is at least still an assistant.

Bylsma.

That’s it, that’s the list (of coaches young enough and interested in continuing).

TBD if he resurfaces after a 5ish year gap like Hartley did.

Maybe Larry Robinson, but IIRC it was a matter of him not wanting to very much...


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[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That was my recollection of the story. If I’m wrong, my bad. It seemed pretty clear what he was getting at. He still had a point, even if it wasn’t concussions.

Now do Sarich, O'Brien, et al. I know you want to think the best of Hartley but there’s too much smoke for me. Name another cup winning coach that has had as little traction in the league. Even Crawford has had more gigs and is at least still an assistant.

Do Sarich and O’Brien?

Sure, Sarich told stories about no back pass in the zone. That was the only specific thing I can recall. When Hartley is sending a message about accountability, entitled vets are a casualty. Sarich called it mental warfare but I do not recall him giving any other specific damning examples.

As for O’Brien and Sven, I don’t know, don’t you see a trend emerging around a coach sending a message about the amount of commitment you need to stay in the NHL?

Hartley had high standards for fitness, accountability, etc. He scratched Kovalchuk for being late, which Kovalchuk blamed on a lost cabbie. Scratched the young guys here after the Super Bowl issue

There was no tolerance for slacking and he may have communicated as much in a way that wasn’t nice

You mentioned not seeing stories about Keenan and Sutter, but you don’t even need to look too hard. Roenick talked about the time Keenan grabbed him by the throat and scared him into a playing style that made him uncomfortable. And there are stories about Sutter as well that aren’t hard to find.

Also (as I see you mentioned) it was reported by Laracque among others that Montreal was in conversation with Hartley and he did not accept the offer. The owner of the Russian team confirmed this. You remember that he had a year left on his Swiss league contract that he had to get permission to walk away and join the Flames

So long story short, obviously everybody has their own opinion about the guy. And I know I’m not going to change it. I don’t dispute that he was demanding. I don’t think he is as unique as people want to paint him as being.

But I do stand by my observations about people judging based on very different burdens of proof (and also about the bad breaker upper observations)

The Flames have fostered a culture with lack of accountability for years.

I think Brad made a mistake in his management of coaches. Started with Hartley, continued from there, and even Sutter has similar question marks to Hartley if people care to look. But they don’t.

At any rate, the buck stops with Brad, by his own words, and he needs to go.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Bylsma.

That’s it, that’s the list (of coaches young enough and interested in continuing).

TBD if he resurfaces after a 5ish year gap like Hartley did.

Maybe Larry Robinson, but IIRC it was a matter of him not wanting to very much...


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Randy Carlyle too. Not that I care too much about this Hartley conversation, but he was a head coach for 10 more years after his championship.

In recent history that exceeds Bylsma, Carlyle, and Robinson. Also exceeds Burns, but that is for different reasons.

[442scotty]

I don’t know if I can stand another season of trying to watch this team in its present form. Its just enough already. Fooled me so many times that I’m done. We need a Sakic quality GM and just start again like Ottawa.

[ricardodw]

I went through the bold predication thread and there was no one at all going into the season that thought that Treliving had not assembled a roster that was going to miss the playoffs.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Randy Carlyle too. Not that I care too much about this Hartley conversation, but he was a head coach for 10 more years after his championship.

In recent history that exceeds Bylsma, Carlyle, and Robinson. Also exceeds Burns, but that is for different reasons.

Caryle was only out for 1 season between TOR and ANA 2.0.

Last firing age 63. No idea if he wants/wanted to get back in, but at this point he's barely been out 2 full seasons.

I doubt anybody has been breaking down his door to hire him, but there have only been 12 openings since then:

Scandals:
Peters/Ward
Montgomery/Bowness
Babcock/Keefe

This season (mid-year):
Julien->Ducharme
Krueger->Granato
Sutter

Prev Season (mid-year):
VGK - DeBoer
NAS - Hynes

Off-season:
WAS - Laviolette
NJD - Ruff
MIN - Evason (interim confirmed full)
SJ - Boughner (interim confirmed full)

So you could say there's only been two situations where a team did an off-season search and actually hired someone new (Lavi and Ruff). All we can be really certain of is that a guy with a cup and multiple SCF appearances and the 7th winningest coach of all time were better options.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Do Sarich and O’Brien?

Sure, Sarich told stories about no back pass in the zone, being scratched and then sent a message being dressed for being hungover and unprepared. …...

IRC, the story about being scratched and then being dressed when hungover and unprepared, was Commodore talking about how badly he was treated by Babcock. - not Sarich

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

IRC, the story about being scratched and then being dressed when hungover and unprepared, was Commodore talking about how badly he was treated by Babcock. - not Sarich

Hmm… yes, thanks. That does sound right.

I’ll scrub that

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Do Sarich and O’Brien?

Sure, Sarich told stories about no back pass in the zone. That was the only specific thing I can recall. When Hartley is sending a message about accountability, entitled vets are a casualty. Sarich called it mental warfare but I do not recall him giving any other specific damning examples.

As for O’Brien and Sven, I don’t know, don’t you see a trend emerging around a coach sending a message about the amount of commitment you need to stay in the NHL?

It's confirmation bias. People will focus on evidence that adheres to their personal opinions. For every player that complained about Hartley, there are several more that expressed admiration and respect for him. Like you said, Sarich is a good guy, but what Hartley did was no out of line at all. He admits to not being prepared to play and being made an example of. I don't see why that is a bad thing. O'Brien was lazy, liked to party, showed up to camp obese, and then acted insubordinate. He deserved his fate.

It's a shame about Parker, but that is an overall culture problem in the NHL. Plus, he did make a living beating people up. How many people did he fight on his own accord that didn't want to fight him? An NHL enforcer complaining about a bully coach is a little hypocritical. If he knew he had 25-30 concussions, he should have retired or management should have taken him off the active roster. Is it even possible to have that many and still function?

Roger Nielsen also made Eric Lindros play when he clearly shouldn't have been. That is how the NHL operated and coaches were expected to play players that were active on the roster and those players were expected to do what they were told. Maybe things have changed, I don't know. But what Hartley did was within the expected norms of the time.

[BrennyBaller]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Hmm… yes, thanks. That does sound right.

I’ll scrub that

I'm pretty sure Sarich had a similar story with Hartley. He had been scratched a few games, and went golfing in LA in April near the end of the season. Hartley found out, and played him the next day.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I went through the bold predication thread and there was no one at all going into the season that thought that Treliving had not assembled a roster that was going to miss the playoffs.

Flames missing the playoffs is hardly a bold prediction.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I went through the bold predication thread and there was no one at all going into the season that thought that Treliving had not assembled a roster that was going to miss the playoffs.

Not true. See Posts 98 and 103.
I agree that in retrospect, most posters were wildy optimistic, but hope should spring eternal - even in Mudville at the start of the season.

[Jiri Hrdina]

The bold prediction thread is the last one that should be used for any gauge of what people were thinking. The purpose of that thread is put forth thoughts that are unlikely to happen.

Predicting the Flames would miss the playoffs was simply not a bold enough prediction.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The bold prediction thread is the last one that should be used for any gauge of what people were thinking. The purpose of that thread is put forth thoughts that are unlikely to happen.

Predicting the Flames would miss the playoffs was simply not a bold enough prediction.

I disagree. I was saying since the start of the year we had one of the worst forward line ups in the league (maybe I should of listened to myself more in hindsight). But even with that I still never thought we wouldn't place top 4 in a 7 team all Canadian division....

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by BrennyBaller

I'm pretty sure Sarich had a similar story with Hartley. He had been scratched a few games, and went golfing in LA in April near the end of the season. Hartley found out, and played him the next day.

He did, and that’s not a story that impresses me a lot. Sarich also had a lot of general things to say though, and specifically said that numerous players had Hartley expressly included in their NTCs which he’d never seen done before with a coach.

[Jetfire]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You mentioned not seeing stories about Keenan and Sutter, but you don’t even need to look too hard. Roenick talked about the time Keenan grabbed him by the throat and scared him into a playing style that made him uncomfortable.

Keenan was a deplorable dude. There's just so many stories out there, if you merely look for them as you said. The one that left me with zero respect for the guy was with Dale Hawerchuk's dying grandma attending her last game to see Dale play and Keenan scratched Hawerchuk just to flex on him, playing his ****ty mind games. Hartley could be a nasty coach, there's no denying, but guys like Keenan were simply on a different level.

[Psytic]

I thought they were going to be 3rd or 4th in the Div. Didn't think they would be this bad but also didn't think they would win the division. On paper it looked like a 1st round out team.

[InternationalVillager]

Can we please get back to the topic at hand - which is to fire Treliving.

Who cares about Hartley, Sarich, SOB, Keenan, Carlyle. Water under the bridge.