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Old 01-11-2019, 12:08 PM   #1061
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Geezuz that's dramatic. Calgary 200 years from now won't grow and be different? Calgary hasn't even been around for 200 years, and you're predicting emergency mode two centuries into the future?

My god, some of this is just madness.
I know it's utter lunacy. It's like the whole Olympic debacle.

I find people who have lived here too long can become blind to the wealth of the region's geography.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:27 PM   #1062
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The Elbow River will be lined with green space. A linear park will run west from the river between the CPR mainline and 10th Avenue, all the way to the green line station at Fourth Street S.E.
This is pretty interesting - with the removal of the transit garage, they will be able to make a nice(r) link from Fort Calgary riverwalk to Enmax Park. The linear park is cool, too, but I wonder how they'll mitigate rail noise? Seems to me they do a lot of humping of trains along that stretch? I don't want to be anywhere nearby when that's going on without a really good set of earplugs.

I think I've asked this before and forgotten the answer - it seems to me that one of the bridges over the Elbow (9 Ave, Macdonald Ave, or the CPR bridge) is near the end of its lifecycle? Haven't skimmed through the whole doc yet to see if they have any plans for replacement/realignment?


The idea of a 'Music Mile' (map on p.31) from Inglewood to Studio Bell is also cool; the Stampede Youth Campus and Opera Centre will also be just a few blocks south.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:23 PM   #1063
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I agree, calling it an Arena, or Centre, or Dome, or Facility, or Colosseum, or gardens, really should not change anyone's decision.
Yes, It shouldn't, it just get's in my craw that some people are attempting to do just that... "Yes, studies show that arenas aren't economic drivers... but this is an Event Center!".

It's incredibly dishonest. They can call it an Event Center if they want but they should, at the very least, acknowledge that an Event Center is the same dang thing as an Arena.

YMMV but not doing so strikes me as a deliberate attempt to manipulate and deceive the un- and under-informed.
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:30 PM   #1064
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ncil-1.4972389
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Old 01-11-2019, 01:56 PM   #1065
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When a concert or event comes to town, CSEC is not the promoter or the entity putting the event on. The promoter would pay CSEC for the costs + a service charge of certain building operation staff like ushers, concessions, and security. CSEC isn't in the business of bringing those events to Calgary.

Those events are independent of the CSEC business, which is why the Event Center is more than just an arena for the Flames and CSEC.
Is it not CSEC who oversees the rental of the building (and all services and amenities within) per their agreement with Saddledome Foundation?

Aside from the show on the stage and the actual mechanism of selling tickets (though I think they are involved to an extent with managing the relationships of premium seats and suites having first right of refusal for other events), CSEC is in charge of everything else (staffing ushers, security, concessions, custodial, parking, many other logistics, etc.), and takes all/most of the revenue generated from these additional sources...

Perhaps not technically, but they are essentially a co-promoter of almost every event.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:06 PM   #1066
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I disagree, I think the City of Calgary would be actively looking to build an 18,000 seat modern arena/centre/coliseum/gardens or whatever they want to call it. The City would want that even without a hockey team.
Is this a parallel universe where the Saddledome also didn't exist?

With the Saddledome existing, in the near-term, it would slot into their 'unfunded project wishlist' right near the very bottom, well below a fieldhouse, for instance. Actively is far too strong a word.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:09 PM   #1067
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Is this a parallel universe where the Saddledome also didn't exist?

With the Saddledome existing, in the near-term, it would slot into their 'unfunded project wishlist' right near the very bottom, well below a fieldhouse, for instance. Actively is far too strong a word.
It's actively part of the entertainment district plan released just yesterday. CMLC, the Stampede board, the City, are all entities that are actively trying to include it part of their plan.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:16 PM   #1068
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I can envision the Saddledome decommissioned and demo'd, which is my educated guess for what will happen. There were ideas bandied about submitted several years ago about turning it into conference space through a large renovation, but with the new convention centre on the near horizon combined with a new event centre, I don't see what purpose it would serve in the long-term going forward.

The Corral will be demo'd for the new convention centre (as well as the south facing side of the BMO Centre to adust for the 17th Avenue expansion), and as such, that +15 bridge to the Saddledome is coming down, disconnecting it from the convention space.

Change is coming, and I love it.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:18 PM   #1069
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Well they better pray for a reason for people to come live here other than oil and gas. We canít fill the towers we already have. 50 years, 100 years, 200 years, you have to have some confidence the city will grow and be viable. Right now there is absolutely zero reason to believe the city is ready for any growth no matter what timeframe.

To me, a plan like that screams just how detached from reality the City Council is. They donít understand how dire things are here. Calgary is in emergency mode in my mind.
The city grew by over 40,000 people during the NEP. Today at less than half the growth of that period weíd grow by over 40,000 again in the next 5 years. At a modest growth of 5% over the next 10 years (significantly worse than the 80s, which was pretty dire, and twice as bad as Winnipeg in the past decade, which isnít exactly hopping with bright-eyed optimism economically) the city will add over 125,000 people in the next decade.

So not planning for ďany growthĒ is pretty ridiculous, and pretty detached from reality.
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:24 PM   #1070
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Winnipeg grew 6.3% between 2011 and 2016, without oil and gas.

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/lo...413218973.html
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Old 01-11-2019, 02:27 PM   #1071
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I think I've asked this before and forgotten the answer - it seems to me that one of the bridges over the Elbow (9 Ave, Macdonald Ave, or the CPR bridge) is near the end of its lifecycle? Haven't skimmed through the whole doc yet to see if they have any plans for replacement/realignment?
The 9th Ave bridge replacement project is scheduled to begin this spring, with a planned opening date of the new bridge in the fall of 2020: http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...t-project.aspx
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:09 PM   #1072
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It's actively part of the entertainment district plan released just yesterday. CMLC, the Stampede board, the City, are all entities that are actively trying to include it part of their plan.
Of course, in this real reality where we have a pro hockey team.

It's a ridiculous hypothetical to look at, but you're suggesting the city would still want to fund the entire project by itself w/o a team?
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:11 PM   #1073
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Of course, in this real reality where we have a pro hockey team.

It's a ridiculous hypothetical to look at, but you're suggesting the city would still want to fund the entire project by itself w/o a team?
I didn't say that the City would fund it themselves without a team. I said that they would be actively trying to get one built. Nenshi already stated that they would look into other private investors and other options outside of CSEC.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:36 PM   #1074
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Geezuz that's dramatic. Calgary 200 years from now won't grow and be different? Calgary hasn't even been around for 200 years, and you're predicting emergency mode two centuries into the future?

My god, some of this is just madness.
It is dramatic for sure. Thatís because I donít know if youíve heard but oil and gas drives Calgaryís economy in a very significant way. You may not have been following along or aware as to how dire things are there, or where industry is headed but let me tell you, itís not pretty. I think Calgary is in some serious #### here and into the future. Youíll see in about 1-5 years as the financial impacts worsen.

Also, people move to where the work is. So if Calgary doesnít adjust and move out of oil and gas, which it might and frankly which it needs to do, then things will only worsen.

If it all sounds dramatic, itís because we are in dramatic times. You should be worried about all of this. Particularly if you own real estate in Calgary, or care about the future of this city.

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I'm convinced Mr Coffee logs in around midnight each night, finds something to be overly negative about then logs out a happy guy.
But things are overly negative these days from the perspective of oil and gas. People are just ignorant of how bad it truly is and will be in the near-future, so while yes Iím being a little bit of a worry-wart / chicken little, Iím also trying to be realistic.

I have plenty of positive things to say too if youíd like to hear them haha

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I know it's utter lunacy. It's like the whole Olympic debacle.

I find people who have lived here too long can become blind to the wealth of the region's geography.
This post didnít make a lot of sense to me. What do you mean itís utter lunacy? Have you seen the jr sector crushed in energy investment? Have you noticed the rapid and highly concerning capital flight from the sector? Are you aware that those high salaries, long term incentive programs and big bonuses that oil and gas delivers on an annual basis are shrinking and going to less people? Thatís less money for properties, the general economy, etc. Have you noticed the vacancy rate in downtown Calgary lately? Have you noticed that our oil and gas is now forever landlocked to the current production throughout capacities because we canít build pipelines and fuel growth? Have you noticed the amount of energy workers leaving the city and moving to the States, or out of industry altogether into something or somewhere else? Have you noticed real estate sales dropping 15% in one year...?

Maybe youíre not that tuned into things? I have no idea what the ďrichness of surrounding geographyĒ even means so please be more specific.

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The city grew by over 40,000 people during the NEP. Today at less than half the growth of that period weíd grow by over 40,000 again in the next 5 years. At a modest growth of 5% over the next 10 years (significantly worse than the 80s, which was pretty dire, and twice as bad as Winnipeg in the past decade, which isnít exactly hopping with bright-eyed optimism economically) the city will add over 125,000 people in the next decade.

So not planning for ďany growthĒ is pretty ridiculous, and pretty detached from reality.
This is the best response to me so far. Just keep in mind the problems of the NEP are dwarfed by the problems of today. Oil and gas wasnít viewed as this tyrannical evil business back then. But thatís a fair point, there may be growth in the next 50 years but still, have you seen that picture? Itís like constructing another downtown!

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Winnipeg grew 6.3% between 2011 and 2016, without oil and gas.

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/lo...413218973.html
Winnipeg is 100% irrelevant when it comes to oil and gas. They have how many energy company HQís? They have how much reserves? Winnipegís economy is not based primarily on energy investment so I have no idea why youíd bring this up.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:57 PM   #1075
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To assume the past and present is the future is a bad approach.

I see three major flaws with your post:

1/ To assume you need a dominant industry to drive urbanization is a flawed assumption. There are few cities like Calgary, which is so dependent on one industry. In fact there are many cities that are growing rapidly in North America that donít have a dominant industry. Some like Vancouver and southern Cal actually have pretty crappy job prospects.

2/ the world is trending towards increased urbanization. Combined with population growth in Canada this means it is a reasonable assumption is size of cities will continue to grow. Iím sure there are plenty of studies that quantify the ranges of forecasted population growth.

3/ Calgary is a very attractive city for people to move to. It was a no brainer from 2005-2014 when wages were 2x the same job elsewhere in Canada. But itís still attractive. It has Great outdoor access, relatively cheap property, good schools, good healthcare, reasonable commute, good amenities. The only comparable cities to Calgary are Salt Lake City and Denver, which both have seen rapid population growth without oil and gas being as major a driver of their economy.

Fundamentally Calgary will change and grow. It will go through ebbs and flows. At some point we willl run out of oil or there wonít be demand for oil and Calgary will change. If that point is now we will get through it. If that is in 20 years we will get through it then.



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It is dramatic for sure. Thatís because I donít know if youíve heard but oil and gas drives Calgaryís economy in a very significant way. You may not have been following along or aware as to how dire things are there, or where industry is headed but let me tell you, itís not pretty. I think Calgary is in some serious #### here and into the future. Youíll see in about 1-5 years as the financial impacts worsen.

Also, people move to where the work is. So if Calgary doesnít adjust and move out of oil and gas, which it might and frankly which it needs to do, then things will only worsen.

If it all sounds dramatic, itís because we are in dramatic times. You should be worried about all of this. Particularly if you own real estate in Calgary, or care about the future of this city.



But things are overly negative these days from the perspective of oil and gas. People are just ignorant of how bad it truly is and will be in the near-future, so while yes Iím being a little bit of a worry-wart / chicken little, Iím also trying to be realistic.

I have plenty of positive things to say too if youíd like to hear them haha



This post didnít make a lot of sense to me. What do you mean itís utter lunacy? Have you seen the jr sector crushed in energy investment? Have you noticed the rapid and highly concerning capital flight from the sector? Are you aware that those high salaries, long term incentive programs and big bonuses that oil and gas delivers on an annual basis are shrinking and going to less people? Thatís less money for properties, the general economy, etc. Have you noticed the vacancy rate in downtown Calgary lately? Have you noticed that our oil and gas is now forever landlocked to the current production throughout capacities because we canít build pipelines and fuel growth? Have you noticed the amount of energy workers leaving the city and moving to the States, or out of industry altogether into something or somewhere else? Have you noticed real estate sales dropping 15% in one year...?

Maybe youíre not that tuned into things? I have no idea what the ďrichness of surrounding geographyĒ even means so please be more specific.



This is the best response to me so far. Just keep in mind the problems of the NEP are dwarfed by the problems of today. Oil and gas wasnít viewed as this tyrannical evil business back then. But thatís a fair point, there may be growth in the next 50 years but still, have you seen that picture? Itís like constructing another downtown!



Winnipeg is 100% irrelevant when it comes to oil and gas. They have how many energy company HQís? They have how much reserves? Winnipegís economy is not based primarily on energy investment so I have no idea why youíd bring this up.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:20 PM   #1076
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I didn't say that the City would fund it themselves without a team. I said that they would be actively trying to get one built. Nenshi already stated that they would look into other private investors and other options outside of CSEC.
Right, so either way they are just pursuing a sensible deal...

What I don't think is terribly clear is the urgency for the arena aspect of the deal. It's important and necessary to develop a plan for this whole area. As we see, major changes are going ahead right now (Green Line, 17 ave extension, 9 ave bridge, BMO/Corral reno)

I really hope councillors are smart enough to see that the timing of the 18000 seat building is largely irrelevant to the rest of it. The plan is great.
Implementing the connectivity changes that make the area more desirable as currently constituted, as well as more desirable for future development is great, too.

It's also great that the city will keep the space available for the arena - I hope they simply tell CSEC that the city's current offer is still on the table (already too generous IMO, but I'd live with it). If they don't want to proceed right now, so be it, our door is aways open, but don't expect the deal to improve. The two sq blocks of parking lot will remain useful as a parking lot until whenever they want to start digging.

Instead of directing more city resources to build a new arena, I'd rather the city directed them to continue revitalizing the 'donut of desolation' surrounding the edges of Stampede Park not bounded by the Elbow River (which is largely what this plan is all about):

SW 17 ave SW between 1st St SW and Macleod Trail (the 3 ugly blocks separating the Red Mile from Stampede Park). They're already on their way with the 17 Ave crossing and pedestrian upgrades.

Similarly improving the connections across the CPR tracks, as well as the atmosphere along that barrier will be huge. It doesn't matter if you are trying to go the Saddledome or new arena location - the 4 blocks to the north and west of those locations are what really require upgrading. As that continues to happen, the case for a new arena will start to make itself (and the Saddledome will actually be ready for retirement as it approaches it's 5th decade).

Prioritizing the new arena does very little to accelerate the revitalization surrounding it.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:54 PM   #1077
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It is dramatic for sure. Thatís because I donít know if youíve heard but oil and gas drives Calgaryís economy in a very significant way. You may not have been following along or aware as to how dire things are there, or where industry is headed but let me tell you, itís not pretty. I think Calgary is in some serious #### here and into the future. Youíll see in about 1-5 years as the financial impacts worsen.

Also, people move to where the work is. So if Calgary doesnít adjust and move out of oil and gas, which it might and frankly which it needs to do, then things will only worsen.

If it all sounds dramatic, itís because we are in dramatic times. You should be worried about all of this. Particularly if you own real estate in Calgary, or care about the future of this city.



But things are overly negative these days from the perspective of oil and gas. People are just ignorant of how bad it truly is and will be in the near-future, so while yes Iím being a little bit of a worry-wart / chicken little, Iím also trying to be realistic.

I have plenty of positive things to say too if youíd like to hear them haha



This post didnít make a lot of sense to me. What do you mean itís utter lunacy? Have you seen the jr sector crushed in energy investment? Have you noticed the rapid and highly concerning capital flight from the sector? Are you aware that those high salaries, long term incentive programs and big bonuses that oil and gas delivers on an annual basis are shrinking and going to less people? Thatís less money for properties, the general economy, etc. Have you noticed the vacancy rate in downtown Calgary lately? Have you noticed that our oil and gas is now forever landlocked to the current production throughout capacities because we canít build pipelines and fuel growth? Have you noticed the amount of energy workers leaving the city and moving to the States, or out of industry altogether into something or somewhere else? Have you noticed real estate sales dropping 15% in one year...?

Maybe youíre not that tuned into things? I have no idea what the ďrichness of surrounding geographyĒ even means so please be more specific.



This is the best response to me so far. Just keep in mind the problems of the NEP are dwarfed by the problems of today. Oil and gas wasnít viewed as this tyrannical evil business back then. But thatís a fair point, there may be growth in the next 50 years but still, have you seen that picture? Itís like constructing another downtown!



Winnipeg is 100% irrelevant when it comes to oil and gas. They have how many energy company HQís? They have how much reserves? Winnipegís economy is not based primarily on energy investment so I have no idea why youíd bring this up.
But itís just master planned land re-zoning and a bit of infrastructure. The city isnít building a neighbourhood worth of buildings here.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:04 PM   #1078
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If the “bit of infrastructure”, is designed to accommodate a capacity of a second downtown, well, that’s my point. They may not need it.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:31 PM   #1079
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The 9th Ave bridge replacement project is scheduled to begin this spring, with a planned opening date of the new bridge in the fall of 2020: http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...t-project.aspx
That bridge looks cool, but I'm sad we're quickly losing all of our steel Through Truss bridges.

Hopefully Reconciliation Bridge sticks around.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:50 PM   #1080
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If the ďbit of infrastructureĒ, is designed to accommodate a capacity of a second downtown, well, thatís my point. They may not need it.
It'll be a while before we have too much public infrastructure...the downturn might just let things get caught up. If Calgary somehow shrunk back to a million people in 20 years, we're not going to regret having a full ring road, int'l airport terminal, the current improvements to Crowchild over the Bow, or the Green Line. We'd all pay higher taxes and our homes would be worth less. Kind of like every other city in Canada except Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal.

We have more reason to fear Trump and the little rocket man riling each other up again than regretting that we spent a few dozen millions making the walk from DT to EV to Stampede to 17th a hell of a lot nicer is the reason the city collapsed.

But, if we are worried about spending public money on 'Nice-to-haves' right now, a new arena should probably be at the top of that list?
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