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Old 01-24-2020, 02:09 PM   #4221
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20 municipalities in the province rely on O&G tax revenue for over 50% of their tax income. That seems crazy to me.
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Old 01-24-2020, 02:33 PM   #4222
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20 municipalities in the province rely on O&G tax revenue for over 50% of their tax income. That seems crazy to me.
Are you suggesting it might be a good idea to try and diversify the industries that they rely on for tax revenue instead of putting all(or at least over 50%) of their eggs in one basket?
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Old 01-24-2020, 02:42 PM   #4223
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Are you suggesting it might be a good idea to try and diversify the industries that they rely on for tax revenue instead of putting all(or at least over 50%) of their eggs in one basket?
They should probably properly tax all business and residents under their jurisdiction.

But i know you donít actually want to have that conversation.
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Old 01-24-2020, 03:08 PM   #4224
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They should probably properly tax all business and residents under their jurisdiction.

But i know you donít actually want to have that conversation.
Iíd actually be happy to have that conversation, Iím not a big fan of a lot of the preferential treatment farmers receive in terms of both regulations and taxation.

The solution to the problem of over reliance on O&G tax revenue involves a combination of both adjusting taxation rates on businesses that are receiving an unfair advantage and diversifying the industries we generate our tax revenue from.
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Old 01-24-2020, 04:20 PM   #4225
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Do you guys actually step back and read what you write? The hyperbole in here over the littlest things is pretty embarrassing.

So, to recap, Alberta Justice is no longer providing free, in-courtroom water and tissues to lawyers.

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE POOR UNDERPAID LAWYERS?????

This is an absolute travesty and a protest march must be held immediately to.....protest?

Are there any well paid lawyers willing to fund the protest march to get their water back?

C'mon.

On the scale of UCP things I've seen complained about in here, this is such a nothing burger I can't believe it's actually been given any run at all.

Save the outrage for substantive things, oh red riding hoods.

Next target on the list appears to be a one pen one person policy at AHS.

Now where did I put that free water protest sign.....see you all at the legislature in a couple hours?
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Old 01-24-2020, 04:49 PM   #4226
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Do you guys actually step back and read what you write? The hyperbole in here over the littlest things is pretty embarrassing.

So, to recap, Alberta Justice is no longer providing free, in-courtroom water and tissues to lawyers.

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE POOR UNDERPAID LAWYERS?????

This is an absolute travesty and a protest march must be held immediately to.....protest?

Are there any well paid lawyers willing to fund the protest march to get their water back?

C'mon.

On the scale of UCP things I've seen complained about in here, this is such a nothing burger I can't believe it's actually been given any run at all.

Save the outrage for substantive things, oh red riding hoods.

Next target on the list appears to be a one pen one person policy at AHS.

Now where did I put that free water protest sign.....see you all at the legislature in a couple hours?
Did you mean to post this two days ago when it was still news?
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Old 01-24-2020, 07:32 PM   #4227
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Did you mean to post this two days ago when it was still news?

Yeah. Right now itís why isnít the courts arenít willing to anything about the discredited pathologist, Matshes.

Itís hard to keep up with all of this though.
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Old 01-24-2020, 07:51 PM   #4228
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Do you guys actually step back and read what you write? The hyperbole in here over the littlest things is pretty embarrassing.

So, to recap, Alberta Justice is no longer providing free, in-courtroom water and tissues to lawyers.
Hi Pot, have you met Kettle?

There was what, 4 posts in this thread about it while the media quoted the president of the Criminal Defence Lawyers Association who said that witnesses would not be provided with water or tissues.

Once it was revealed there would still be tissues provided to witnesses, there was practically nothing...

You made up an argument in your head, and still somehow lost.
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Old 01-25-2020, 09:24 AM   #4229
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While I think it's fair to ask rural municpalitities and areas to pay at least some of their policing cost it's probably not right they should pay for it all. Some of them are pretty large geographically and with a low population density their cost of policing is probably higher than urban areas per capita.

Second point, if we are asking rural area to pay all (or most) of their policing and other costs maybe we should let them keep more of the revenue some of these areas generate for the Province. For example right now zero percent of O&G revenues are derived from the Cities of Edmonton and Calgary, wells and oilsands operations are all in rural areas. Same with forestry and every other natural resource. Yet the cities are benefiting from these revenues, the areas the resources come from get very little back in return. And this is okay, the model generally works reasonably well. But before we ask various groups to pay more than they currently do we should also look at what and how they contribute. This applies equally to urban and rural regions.
The rural municipalities charge oil and gas companies property taxes on their assets in those municipalities. Taxes that are absolutely disproportionate to the value of the taxes asset in the case of almost every municipality.

And the rural municipalities shouldnt have a tax problem. Those giant spaces with few people cost more per person to police, but municipalities in AB dont collect taxes on a per person basis they collect them on a property value basis. That land with no people is still worth real money. As a society we/they have chosen to not assess farmland at anything close to its market value, and then the municipalities put a way lower mill rate on that lower assessed value.

My father in law owns a farm with a market value comparable to my house, on which he pays $150/year in property tax. I pay more than 10x that amount.

I get that nobody wants to pay more, but the rural population, especially farmers, have been living off property taxes paid in cities and by industry for a long time.
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Old 01-25-2020, 09:05 PM   #4230
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The rural municipalities charge oil and gas companies property taxes on their assets in those municipalities. Taxes that are absolutely disproportionate to the value of the taxes asset in the case of almost every municipality.

And the rural municipalities shouldnt have a tax problem. Those giant spaces with few people cost more per person to police, but municipalities in AB dont collect taxes on a per person basis they collect them on a property value basis. That land with no people is still worth real money. As a society we/they have chosen to not assess farmland at anything close to its market value, and then the municipalities put a way lower mill rate on that lower assessed value.

My father in law owns a farm with a market value comparable to my house, on which he pays $150/year in property tax. I pay more than 10x that amount.

I get that nobody wants to pay more, but the rural population, especially farmers, have been living off property taxes paid in cities and by industry for a long time.



Not sure where your father in law lives, but those numbers seem extremely low. A few questions, the $150/year, is that the tax for the home and yard? Is that the tax for a 1/4 section of crop land? Pasture land? These numbers donít pass the smell test which you use to state that farmers have been living off property taxes paid by urban residents and industries. For clarification, in the county I live in, residences and industries within town limits pay taxes to the town, not the county.

I am strictly a grain farm and have no livestock, and my property (County) tax averages out to around $787 per 1/4 section of land. The highest is my home and farmyard 1/4 (shop, grain bins, etc) which is $2560 and lowest is $319 for some marginal pasture land.

Are these numbers low compared to city properties? For sure, but please keep in mind the services you receive that I donít. If I have water well or septic tank issues, those repairs and bills are strictly my responsibility and are not covered by my property tax. I donít have paved roads that go to my doorstep which doesnít beat up vehicles (gravel and windshields/ vehicle paint donít mix, more mud when it rains, etc.- this increases maintenance costs)

If you need the emergency services of police, you can expect a squad car in 5 minutes, myself Iím looking at a minimum 30 minutes or longer. The same goes for ambulance and fire response times. Sure could have used fast police response when thieves broke into my house at 5:30am while my family were sleeping to look for my truck keys (which they found and stole my truck).

I donít have convenient access to multi-million dollar rec centres with swimming pools, weight rooms, climbing walls, etc.

I could go on, but I think Iíve made my point. Iím not complaining about the lack of services we have compared to urban centres, thatís part of living in the country and I accept this reality. But when you lead people on to believe that farmers have been living off of urban and industrial property taxes isnít telling the whole truth. In addition, please know that I do understand that rural areas do receive more funding on a per capital level, and for that I appreciate the urban taxpayer (Iím talking provincial taxes). Thank you for making some aspects of my life a little easier.
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Old 01-25-2020, 11:16 PM   #4231
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^^ I’ve got a battery site that’s been shut in for 8 years that had its taxes go up more this year than the farm it’s located on pays a year.

The system is broken.

Edit: I will admit county to county will change so yes I realize it may not be apples to apples.

Last edited by Weitz; 01-25-2020 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 01-25-2020, 11:25 PM   #4232
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Your home quarter is higher because the home is evaluated separately based on market value. Parcels that are strictly agriculture are only assessed by formula. My father-in-laws parcel is a mix of crop and pasture land, with no improvements. It is located in a county with significant oil and gas development, so the tax burden on agriculture there is even lower than average.

When I mentioned urban area property taxes paying for farmers, I specifically meant the education property taxes. They are divided by assessed value throughout the province. Because farmland is assessed at much less than its market value, everyone else in the province pays more.

The industrial comment was more targeted toward oil and gas taxpayer, who absolutely do pay taxes to the counties their wells and pipelines are in. This varies by county, because some counties have more oil and gas development, and some have been more aggressive about making the O/G mill rates much higher than the mill rates for everyone else.

A quarter section of marginal pasture land would be worth what, maybe 2k per acre depending where it is as a round number/guestimate? Figure $320 in taxes on $320k in value. In Calgary last year, a $320k house paid $781 in provincial property taxes. That isn't money that goes to better urban services, that's money that goes to the province. Then another $1347 (for $2128 total) that went to local services. Of course, the water/sewer you mentioned are billed separately, and the paved roads are paid for by land developers when they build the houses (and incorporated into prices). The rec centers, police, and emergency response you mentioned do come from that local taxes.

Ultimately farmland is paying way less than it's fair share of provincial tax, which means every other property owner pays more. How the local counties divide up their tax base doesn't matter that much (if they make all the appraisals 10% of market and the rate 10x higher it works out the same locally). But because the appraisals are so low farmland pays very little provincial property tax, shifting that burden elsewhere.

Anyway, I get that farming isn't typically a high cashflow or glamour business. But I do think everyone should pay their fair share.
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Old 01-25-2020, 11:31 PM   #4233
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^^ that’s a great post.

But one thing that farmers are very quick to forget is that they get paid for a certain lease size from an oil company, yet they will farm and/or utilize most of that area anyway. Could you imagine if they were only paid for the small amount of land that is mostly used?
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Old 01-26-2020, 10:29 AM   #4234
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Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
Hi Pot, have you met Kettle?

There was what, 4 posts in this thread about it while the media quoted the president of the Criminal Defence Lawyers Association who said that witnesses would not be provided with water or tissues.

Once it was revealed there would still be tissues provided to witnesses, there was practically nothing...

You made up an argument in your head, and still somehow lost.
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Old 01-26-2020, 11:04 AM   #4235
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^ God damn, do I wish I could only care about one file at a time...
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