She did the whole Klingon dudes dead and heading to the underworld scream.
She gave him the Warriors Death that he supposedly deserved.
There was nothing left for Voq to do, and I think even the writers were happy to see him go.
I am of the opinion that if that was all that Voq's arc had, then it was a waste of time, so I am hoping that there is something still yet to redeem that story. I think if the mirror-Voq is still alive, bringing him back as Voq-prime would lead to some intereresting stuff.
Anyway, I still don't thin that L'Rell screaming and stuff really means his consciousness in Ash is gone. I think she is a conniving enough personality to fake that. My bet is that Voq is still in Ash's head, just with less outwardly violent sociopathic tendencies.
I’m left wondering who the main characters are going to be, going forward. Star Trek series to date have had a continuous group of about 8 main characters.
Now we have discovery:
Lorca is evil
Stamets is brain dead/ whatever he is
Doctor is dead
Tyler/Voq is dead
That leaves Burnham, Tilley and Saru - anyone else?
Makes me think we haven’t seen the last of at least one of the above list.
Tilley and Burnham don’t even have a rank. Burnham was enlisted out of her life sentence by Lorca, who appears to be evil, wouldn’t that mean she’d likley be going back to prison? Who’s left to command Discovey?
I’m left wondering who the main characters are going to be, going forward. Star Trek series to date have had a continuous group of about 8 main characters.
Now we have discovery:
Lorca is evil
Stamets is brain dead/ whatever he is
Doctor is dead
Tyler/Voq is dead
That leaves Burnham, Tilley and Saru - anyone else?
Makes me think we haven’t seen the last of at least one of the above list.
Tilley and Burnham don’t even have a rank. Burnham was enlisted out of her life sentence by Lorca, who appears to be evil, wouldn’t that mean she’d likley be going back to prison? Who’s left to command Discovey?
Even if Michael comes out as the hero, she's still a mutineer serving a life sentence, in the real world, its likely that the most she would get is a shortened sentence and booted out of Star Fleet, they're not likely to give her command of a Star Ship. But again this is Star Trek so logic might not apply.
Saru has filled in as the Captain, somewhat ably, but is he suited for Command, he's an alien whose major emotion and instinct is fear.
They might develop Tilly further, but she's just not that interesting.
Stamets seems ok, but if the Spore drive goes away, they don't really need a spore guy anymore, and he's not an engineer. On top of it, I have a funny feeling that he ascends to god hood at the end of this and ends up being like a traveller.
They don't have many minor characters that they've made interesting, I still think that Kyla Detmer could be developed more. I mean she still has to be really angry about her lot in life and being scared up like she is. But she's basically the Lt Madison from Galaxy Quest.
Spoiler!
I saw the preview of the next episode and it looks like Rekha Sharma who played security chief Landrey is Lorca's right hand man
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I am of the opinion that if that was all that Voq's arc had, then it was a waste of time, so I am hoping that there is something still yet to redeem that story. I think if the mirror-Voq is still alive, bringing him back as Voq-prime would lead to some intereresting stuff.
Anyway, I still don't thin that L'Rell screaming and stuff really means his consciousness in Ash is gone. I think she is a conniving enough personality to fake that. My bet is that Voq is still in Ash's head, just with less outwardly violent sociopathic tendencies.
And I kind of agree with you, but while some of the scenes were good, the phaser fights.
The writing and resolution was just fracking stupid and dumb, and once again these writers can't complete a storyline to save their lives.
Spoiler!
Ok
The good - The phaser fight, really well done and it looked awesome. Saru was good in the episode. Visually it was stunning
The bad - So Lorca spends all this time planning his return and over throwing the Emperor. But then he goes all puppy love over Burnham, basically becomes a two dimensional stupid blind villain. And then for a ruthless monster doesn't kill the Emperor but instead turns his back on her, we all saw his death coming from a mile away.
The predictability and the battlestar galactica-esque musical travel thing, they might as well have played all along the watch tower. The stupidity of the Emperor. She goes from an absolute ruthless Empress, that kills her staff to maintain secrecy and power, and then she after the threat of Lorca being gone doesn't turn on Michael and re-assert her rule. Come on that whole redemption thing is just lazy stupid writing. And then beaming her back, let me guess, she's going to save the federation by being the ruthless leader that they need,a and she's going to be asked to Captain the Discovery. We all know this is happening.
Frankly we spent most of the season getting to know Lorca, both evil and disguised good, and he plotted and fooled everyone and then in the end he was an idiot and worthless and while I might have cheered with him getting kicked down the well like Timmy without lassie to save him, basically this was the writers saying "frack this guy, we don't know what we're doing so see you".
The ugly - Then they find a way back and warp 9 months into the future, and surprise surprise, the war has been won by the Klingons, almost like the writers looked at their notes, shrugged at each other and said "Meh, its the only thing that we've got less". So now we're battlestar galactica where a lone Star Ship flee's the tyranny of the Cylo . . . er Klingon Empire. The problem is because the episode to me and the resolution of the Dark Empire storyline was so utterly stupid that I was hoping a Klingon Ship would show up and kill everyone.
The writers are still absolutely clueless on writing an ensemble show, there's no heft to any of the characters that weren't Suru, Michael and Stamets. You really don't care about them anymore because they're worthless cardboard cutouts, and it became even more clear when they killed the Helmswoman in the mirror universe and I said "And I should care because". In the OT when you saw Mirror Checkov and Sulu, it hit you viscerally, in this case when we saw mirror counter parts, it was like no emotion.
Look for a visual standpoint, this episode was beautiful, from an acting standpoint, Jason and Doug stood out, Michell Yeoh continues to just suck terribly and god knows we now have to have more episodes with her as a major character and her "road to redemption". Martin-Green just isn't strong enough in this role to have a major role. She's wooden and unsure and just plays the same stone faced personality. That works for short term characters, but long term characters need something to latch onto, and I found Lorca and Saru and even Staments to just be more interesting to invest in.
From an action standpoint, outstanding, loved the scenes even though the big plan by Michael and the Emperor was a karate fight which was stupid, I was like, that's their plan 1-2-3 go. Come on put some effort into the writing.
This whole episode was like watching a bad architect building a house on a lake of quicksand and then screaming, I don't understand why its sinking.
Just frustrating because I was coming around on this show strongly, and then they basically grabbed the football on a 1st and 10 on the goaline, put it on the ground and watching the other team recovering the fumble.
Side shots - Michelle Yeoh will end up leading the Resistance Ship Discovery and we'll all learn something about ourself.
Suru has evolved into the best character on the show, and that's a problem, especially since Michelle Yeoh not only is a former alien hating Empress, but also has aquired a taste for his species. I'd like to see that one leaked out.
Jason Isaac's must have been pissed reading the script of his end. What a disappointing end to an evil genius, in the end he became a stupid mustache twirling character, enamored with the Fay Wray Character.
Hopefully at the start of the episode they find out that the spore drive is done for.
Jason is an unbelievable actor, but this was a wasted role for him.
I doubt that they can redeem this show in one week, but the way they handled the Tyler story line, and then this story line is something that should get these idiot writers fired and replaced in the off season.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
They've re-invented the whole verse again as I never remember seeing anything about the federation being destroyed by the Klingons.
so clearly and here it goes with the bad writing, they're going to have a time travel thing because that's how they solve problems in Star Trek to prevent it from happening.
Come on man.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
You are being a bit harsh. I think you need more than a few episodes to really care about characters in a show and feel some attachment to them. I can guarantee that if Sulu or Chekhov were killed off just a few episodes in, nobody would have batted an eye and would be a footnote in ST:TOS. People only care about these old characters as much as they do because they had 80+ episodes + movies to get invested in them and are only looking back with nostalgia-vision. I think you are giving up too early on this show. It’s not that bad.
That said, I was kind of confused by mirror Lorca. Since he was a rebel in the mirror universe, shouldn’t that have made him a good guy in the regular universe?
I guess they could have easily kept Lorca around if they played it that way.
You are being a bit harsh. I think you need more than a few episodes to really care about characters in a show and feel some attachment to them. I can guarantee that if Sulu or Chekhov were killed off just a few episodes in, nobody would have batted an eye and would be a footnote in ST:TOS. People only care about these old characters as much as they do because they had 80+ episodes + movies to get invested in them and are only looking back with nostalgia-vision. I think you are giving up too early on this show. It’s not that bad.
That said, I was kind of confused by mirror Lorca. Since he was a rebel in the mirror universe, shouldn’t that have made him a good guy in the regular universe?
I guess they could have easily kept Lorca around if they played it that way.
Not so much, since he wasn’t rebelling against the ideals of the Terran Empire and wanting to be inclusive and idealistic, but rebelling against an emperor that he thought was becoming too lax. His plan was to double down and be even worse.
If you look at DS9, TNG, Voyager and even Enterprise they established characters in the first season, some of them you knew were secondary but they let them do something, or be in a conversation besides a yes Captain, warp speed now.
In this one outside of Staments, Michael, Saru and Lorca you don't give a crap about the other characters beyond the fact that they push buttons. Even Tilley who they worked on establishing as a player, has really faded in the last couple of episodes.
Look, they went all this way to scar up Detner, and when Michael jumped on the Discovery she gave each other a glance and then nothing, even in the mirror Universe when she had lines, they were the same lines twice and other then that nothing.
What made Star Trek special in all the series was even with the secondary characters they were given a personality and something to work with, but in this series there's nothing.
Even an encounter between Detner and Michael was needed. They could have basically eliminated the Tilly character and had Michael room with Detner.
Like I said when the Helmswoman's mirror counterpart was vaporized, it was meaningless, there was no shock to it, or even a that was cool moment.
Basically the problem to me is that they haven't established this as a crew based series.
And I was giving this show a bunch of credit recently until they engaged the stupidity with the Tyler storyline, and then completely made Lorca a 1 dimensional stupid villain.
Lets look at Stamets boyfriend doctor. They didn't establish him or do anything worthy with him until the episode where he died because they saw his death as a shocker moment, but because they had done a sudden establishment we knew he was going to die as part of the twist and it just didn't have a lot of meaning.
Its a example of 2 steps forward followed by falling down the stairs.
I said in the last one that this writing crew is twist obsessed, and they did it again tonight with the Emperor, oh what a twist that she's actually a noble alien hating eating mass murderer, but she's sooooo worth saving.
WTF!
Its almost like they have a writing by rote for dummies book in the writing room and they open it up.
Hey if Darth Vader can be redeemed lets redeem an Emperor.
The problem with this series isn't the visual effects, or the action, or the appearance or the Choreography. For the most part with the exception of some the acting has been strong with the exception of Green and Yeoh who are just not good.
The problem is the writers, and now because they wanted the twist of the loss of the war, they've written themselves into another corner.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
That said, I was kind of confused by mirror Lorca. Since he was a rebel in the mirror universe, shouldn’t that have made him a good guy in the regular universe?
The mirror universe doesn't work that way, though in the mirror universe Lorca might have been seen as a hero because he wanted a more repressive, terran first empire under a even more iron fist then the current administrator.
And of course they had to have the whole Trump evil "Make the Empire glorious again"
He was even more depraved and ruthless and a monster and murderer then the current Emperor which means that he was certainly more virtuous in that universe.
And he basically looked at the Federation as a freakshow of weakness and he wanted the discovery so that he could basically take a fleet into the Prime Universe and over throw that one as well.
Why control one universe when you can control them all.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
I guess that’s one complaint I have, these reveals go a little fast. I missed why Lorca went from being a rebel against the Terran empire to just this more evil than the Emperor guy.
I think that was a mistake. Keeping him a simple rebel with a different conscious than the Empire would have let him return to the Discovery, since I liked him as captain.
Has this entire season been a prequel for the actual show or will every season feature multiple deaths and ridiculous twists?
That was an action packed episode and it was enjoyable if you don't think about it too much. Wow, did they ever waste Jason Isaacs though. Lorka was such an interesting character who they turned into a stupid cliche villain. Every part of his story in this episode was so cheesy. I would have preferred that instead of turning into some crazy super evil guy they made him a more complicated character who was rebelling to stop an evil regime but was willing to do anything to make it happen. This would have made Michael's story more interesting, forcing her to make a tough decision about supporting Lorka or the Emperor.
Not sure how I feel about upcoming story lines featuring Klingons, Georgiou, and time travel.
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I guess that’s one complaint I have, these reveals go a little fast.
When they don't know if there's going to be a season 2 or not, that's the trap they're forced into. They have to try and make it as flashy as possible to gain an audience, but there's no commitment so they can't do the things that lead to a good series. Or spend the money on good writers.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
This was the first time I watched After Trek and they had some OK explanations for allowing the first season to be about Lorca before the crew became the proverbial Star Trek "family". Lorca dominated the crew and they were marginalized and brow-beaten to follow his commands. The scene with Saru inspiring the crew to work together and the first real dialogue involving some of the bridge crew was meant to show how things will be handled going forward with a prime universe leader, whomever that may become.
The way Lorca was shown from master manipulator, long term thinker, to tunnel vision adoration of Burnham at the expense of his master plan was a disservice to the character. He lost his empire all because of an infatuation with Burnham. That was silly, even James-Bondish in the shallow villainy in the last Lorca episode.
Given the episode titles for the last two this season, next episode will resolve the Klingon war, and the following one will set up the next season. I double down expecting gold, blue and red attire to appear in episode 15. The war will be over, Starfleet will transition to exploration with an uneasy peace with the Klingons.
Last edited by Kjesse; 01-29-2018 at 09:28 AM.
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When they don't know if there's going to be a season 2 or not, that's the trap they're forced into. They have to try and make it as flashy as possible to gain an audience, but there's no commitment so they can't do the things that lead to a good series. Or spend the money on good writers.
I was thinking about that, so yes if they had been planning on wrapping this whole thing up after 13 episodes, then some of the pacing and other thing makes sense to me. I don't know when during the production process that they got the green light for more episodes or seasons, but I guess that makes it difficult to re-work a lot of what they had already done. Getting a do-over for the last 2 episodes they could have made some improvements so this could flow into a continuing series, but I am not sure how much the actors would want to commit to this show either - Isaacs, Yeoh, Jones, I am sure prefer movies than doing a TV series.
