Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I don't think 16th Avenue would have crossing arms. Wouldn't a low-floor LRT just use signals like other vehicles? Obviously it would get a transit priority signal, but it's just a signal.

Looking at other low-floor LRTs out there, I can't say this looks any worse than how ugly Centre Street already is. It certainly isn't going to "destroy" Centre Street like the existing higher LRTs would have done.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.45850...7i16384!8i8192

That doesn't look too bad. Would love to see the Green Line go ahead, and I commute on Centre, as long as it doesn't turn into 36th Street NE I'll be happy.

[frinkprof]

A few things:

1. It is critically important to cross the Bow River to a station on the north side in Phase 1. The danger in stopping at Eau Claire is having the Nose Creek alignment go back on the table. Even a subpar solution to get the alignment on to Center Street is far better than this scenario rearing its head again. Still not out of the woods on that just yet (see below), but to have a phase 1 alignment that still crosses the Bow River is a huge win at this stage of the process.

2. Keeping it underground (mostly) downtown and Beltline is good. Having underground to surface portals, especially in Eau Claire isn't ideal, but given the musings were trying to shoe-horn in as much at-grade operation as possible, or have a SE LRT that ended in Beltline, this is as good as it gets in that context. Very workable.

3. Everyone (particularly Fuzz) should keep in mind that the conversation and information coming out right now is strictly dealing with the Phase 1 plan. 16th Avenue will be crossed, likely grade separated, in a future phase. The station built as part of Phase 1 may even be a temporary station until a future phase crosses 16th Avenue and builds a more permanent station closer to the intersection. This was done for Edmonton's north line where a temporary station was built at NAIT and a permanent station can now be built as part of a future phase. In Edmonton's case, they were waiting for the full closure of the municipal airport. In Calgary's case, it is building what they can with the pot of money they have now. The temporary station thing is very speculative on my part, but they are definitely leaving the 16th Avenue road crossing to a later phase on purpose, so that future decision makers can figure out how to do it based on the funding and priorities at that time, which I would guess will lead to a grade-separated crossing there.

4. There's potentially much more drama and disruption to come, likely at the hands of the provincial government. Without getting into just how incompetent, manipulative, vindictive and corrupt the provincial government has proven to be, I would fully expect more moving of the goalposts. This includes further delays to funding commitments, scrapping of funding commitments altogether, making changes to the composition of City Council (including number of councillor positions) ahead of the municipal election, and uploading the management and planning of major transit infrastructure projects to the provincial government (basically going back to the drawing board with the Green Line under the Province, putting Nose Creek alignment back on the board, at grade operation in the downtown or downtown scrapped altogether). For a case study, see the Ford government in Ontario in the handling of the City of Toronto and TTC projects.

All in all, yeah there's some stuff to figure out, and the transition from bridge to at-grade on Centre Street could be awkward, and continuing to need buses cross the Centre Street Bridge into downtown until more is built isn't ideal. However, the real alternatives here are far worse (and I'm worried they may still happen). Given the environment and developments thus far, I had strong doubts that there would be a workable solution come out of this. I think there is a workable solution on the table, and I'm taking that as a positive.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

A few things:

1. It is critically important to cross the Bow River to a station on the north side in Phase 1. The danger in stopping at Eau Claire is having the Nose Creek alignment go back on the table. Even a subpar solution to get the alignment on to Center Street is far better than this scenario rearing its head again.

Is it? At this point it's becoming debatable, especially when it's clear that the NC LRT is becoming a more and more distant dream. But the real problem with Nose Creek is that the capacity at that end of 7th Avenue is already limited.



And I suspect "crossing the river" is only really important to maintain political support from the NC to keep the Green Line alive. I'm sure the team will try their best to make it happen but if costs continue to go up, they'll cut it just like the rest of the NC.

3. Everyone (particularly Fuzz) should keep in mind that the conversation and information coming out right now is strictly dealing with the Phase 1 plan. 16th Avenue will be crossed, likely grade separated, in a future phase.

Yes, and the same thing was said in 2017. Don't worry, we'll find more money and savings in construction to continue the very important NC LRT. And three years later, there's no new money, construction is delayed, the City is desperately trying to find savings to build Phase 1 and had to gut the river crossing to the worst possible configuration, still hasn't finished the NC preliminary plan (despite it already being delayed years), and barely acquired any properties on Centre Street.

Heck, the Green Line team still hasn't recommended Phase 2, even though Council asked for a decision for Q1 2018! I think it's pretty clear that any new phase for the NC will be decades away at best. Really, the Green Line team's only good job so far has been sabotaging the NC LRT, which should have been the easy choice for Phase 1 but instead the City decided that a maintenance yard 18 km from the heart of Downtown was more important.

4. There's potentially much more drama and disruption to come, likely at the hands of the provincial government.

The provincial governments back-loading of funding changes the numbers by what? A few tens of million in financing. A pittance compared to the catastrophic failure of the City to accurately forecast costs and risk.


The Green Line in 2015 was sold as this:





It's turned into this:





And where getting to Panorama Hills is still going to cost well over $2B.





And it's hilarious going back to the 2015 pitch for the Green Line and reading how LRT for the Green Line was needed because even BRT would not be sufficient for Centre Street N ridership in medium term:

[Torture]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

A few things:

1. It is critically important to cross the Bow River to a station on the north side in Phase 1. The danger in stopping at Eau Claire is having the Nose Creek alignment go back on the table.

This is my greatest fear for the Green Line.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I don't think 16th Avenue would have crossing arms. Wouldn't a low-floor LRT just use signals like other vehicles? Obviously it would get a transit priority signal, but it's just a signal.

Looking at other low-floor LRTs out there, I can't say this looks any worse than how ugly Centre Street already is. It certainly isn't going to "destroy" Centre Street like the existing higher LRTs would have done.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.45850...7i16384!8i8192

That actually looks less intrusive than I imagined. That could work as I initially thought it would then since you're just taking away lanes and simply replacing it with LRV tracks. It should work then. 16 Ave is a clusterfata that can't be made any worse as it is really.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Joborule

That actually looks less intrusive than I imagined. That could work as I initially thought it would then since you're just taking away lanes and simply replacing it with LRV tracks. It should work then. 16 Ave is a clusterfata that can't be made any worse as it is really.

"Hold my beer" -roads dept.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Joborule

16 Ave is a clusterfata that can't be made any worse as it is really.

It may not be possible to get worse, but the length of time each day where it is especially bad could easily be extended and where even a minor accident or stall in the wrong place would be especially crippling to regular and bus traffic.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by accord1999

It may not be possible to get worse, but the length of time each day where it is especially bad could easily be extended and where even a minor accident or stall in the wrong place would be especially crippling to regular and bus traffic.

Oh, the risk does definitely provide the incentive that for whatever they do end up doing, it's in the best interest to do a grade separated crossing due to how significant the road is.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by accord1999

still hasn't finished the NC preliminary plan (despite it already being delayed years), and barely acquired any properties on Centre Street.
...

Really, the Green Line team's only good job so far has been sabotaging the NC LRT, which should have been the easy choice for Phase 1 but instead the City decided that a maintenance yard 18 km from the heart of Downtown was more important.

I've been curious how much progress they've been making in NC land acquisition...sad to hear.

I'm even more curious about who's got stakes in the Sheppard Crossing commercial developments.


The provincial gov't being a mess isn't a good reason to rush into a bad plan. I know 'rush' is a weird verb for a fiasco that has been unfolding for so long, but that should be an indicator for even more caution.

[Jiggy]

I'm wondering who's going to take the train from 16th Ave? A lot of people who live that close to downtown already walk to work, or hop on the bus when its cold. All of the cars from far North will still be taking Center St cause this line doesn't help them for now. Am I missing something?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

I'm wondering who's going to take the train from 16th Ave? A lot of people who live that close to downtown already walk to work, or hop on the bus when its cold. All of the cars from far North will still be taking Center St cause this line doesn't help them for now. Am I missing something?

Maybe busses from the far north, like the 3, would only go to 16th ave station and not downtown.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Maybe busses from the far north, like the 3, would only go to 16th ave station and not downtown.

There are also a lot of express buses from the outlying NW / NE communities that travel down Centre St to DT. Those would only have to go to 16th Ave.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Maybe busses from the far north, like the 3, would only go to 16th ave station and not downtown.

I thought about that, but the 3, 300 and 301 all go past downtown. Would the city re-route other buses to cover those routes?

[Roughneck]

It also gives people from south of the river another option to get to the University/SAIT/Foothills area by taking the train to 16th and hopping on the Max Orange rather than dealing with the downtown line. Not sure what the timing difference would be, but opens up a major employment area to more parts of the city via better public transit as a result.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

It also gives people from south of the river another option to get to the University/SAIT/Foothills area by taking the train to 16th and hopping on the Max Orange rather than dealing with the downtown line. Not sure what the timing difference would be, but opens up a major employment area to more parts of the city via better public transit as a result.

There is already quite a few buses (3,300,301) they can take to the Max Orange line.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

I thought about that, but the 3, 300 and 301 all go past downtown. Would the city re-route other buses to cover those routes?

The 300 and 301 don't go south of downtown, so the 3 would go unchanged.



It would be hard to change the 300 and 301 to terminate at 16th without making people's transit access seem worse, but it may be what happens.

[GirlySports]

The 301 used to go to where 69th station is now so that part got cut once the West line was complete.

I could see the north part of the 3 go to 16th ave station and then the other part of the 3 go from Heritage to a southern green line station.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Maybe busses from the far north, like the 3, would only go to 16th ave station and not downtown.

Then you would need a bus terminal at the 16 Ave Station. Not sure where there would be room for that or if it’s even under consideration. By terminal I don’t mean a building, I mean dedicated area for tithe busses to stop, unload, turnaround, and wait to head back north. Similar to what there is at other LRT stations.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Maybe busses from the far north, like the 3, would only go to 16th ave station and not downtown.

Having people possibly board a feeder bus, then take the 3 or 301, or one of the several others), then transfer to an LRT is recipe for fewer transit users, not more. Every transfer is another barrier. This would be worse service than they currently have.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

Then you would need a bus terminal at the 16 Ave Station. Not sure where there would be room for that or if it’s even under consideration. By terminal I don’t mean a building, I mean dedicated area for tithe busses to stop, unload, turnaround, and wait to head back north. Similar to what there is at other LRT stations.

Maybe similar to Westbrook? Station underground with a small building and a bus loop around it