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Old 08-24-2019, 03:08 PM   #1
Snuffleupagus
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Default Its about time to re-think penalties for illegal guns

After a friends son got off with probation for selling an illegal handgun I was stunned, I was wishing he would do a couple of years in hope of getting his life in order, makes no wonder kids today could care less if they get caught as long as they don't have a previous offense they get nothing.

Calgary has 50+ shootings so far this year, Toronto has almost 300 and it's getting worst.

Brisbane, Australia saw gang crimes involving guns go up a few years ago so they passed their own minimum penalties for gun crimes.

* If convicted of trafficking illegal firearms you will serve a mandatory minimum term of five years in jail.

* If convicted of supplying illegal firearms you will serve a mandatory minimum term of three years in jail.

* If convicted of possessing an illegal firearm you will serve a mandatory minimum term of one year in jail

Since our judges are butter soft we need to have it cut and dry on minimum sentences. how many of these gang banger's would take a chance on selling guns looking at 5 years first offence? my guess would be a whole lot less than now
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Old 08-24-2019, 03:20 PM   #2
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Chris butler for justice of the peace!
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Old 08-24-2019, 03:40 PM   #3
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As CPs gun totin' redneck, I support this proposal.

Stabbings would go up bit at least those have much less chance of hitting unintended targets

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Old 08-24-2019, 04:30 PM   #4
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I’m not a fan of mandatory minimums. It takes power out of the judicial system, giving it to legislators and prosecutors, which undermines our history of common law and separation of powers.

If the prosecution believes a sentence was lenient isn’t it their responsibility to appeal?
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Old 08-24-2019, 04:49 PM   #5
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Iím not a fan of mandatory minimums. It takes power out of the judicial system, giving it to legislators and prosecutors, which undermines our history of common law and separation of powers.

If the prosecution believes a sentence was lenient isnít it their responsibility to appeal?
Unless someone gets shot there is never an appeal because of cost, when it comes to guns there should be a minimum as this is an escalating problem that needs to be nipped in the bud
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:41 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
After a friends son got off with probation for selling an illegal handgun I was stunned, I was wishing he would do a couple of years in hope of getting his life in order, makes no wonder kids today could care less if they get caught as long as they don't have a previous offense they get nothing.

Calgary has 50+ shootings so far this year, Toronto has almost 300 and it's getting worst.

Brisbane, Australia saw gang crimes involving guns go up a few years ago so they passed their own minimum penalties for gun crimes.

* If convicted of trafficking illegal firearms you will serve a mandatory minimum term of five years in jail.

* If convicted of supplying illegal firearms you will serve a mandatory minimum term of three years in jail.

* If convicted of possessing an illegal firearm you will serve a mandatory minimum term of one year in jail

Since our judges are butter soft we need to have it cut and dry on minimum sentences. how many of these gang banger's would take a chance on selling guns looking at 5 years first offence? my guess would be a whole lot less than now
Have mandatory minimums for gun crimes worked in other areas of the world they have been tried. What have Brisbaneís results been, Are they statistically significant?

Increased incarceration will cost a lot of money. Could that money be better spent on other crime reduction initiatives that would get better results. Say like adding more officers on the street. A year or two in prison for one person cost roughly what a single officer would cost.

I know there is strong evidence out there that mandatory minimums donít have any affect on drug crimes and that Capital punishment doesnít have an affect on murder rates. So my immediate reaction is that this likely has the same failing. The people who commit these crimes do not consider the penalty when choosing to commit the crime. Iím certainly open to being persuaded if there is evidence of it being effective.
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Old 08-25-2019, 09:15 PM   #7
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Have mandatory minimums for gun crimes worked in other areas of the world they have been tried. What have Brisbaneís results been, Are they statistically significant?

Increased incarceration will cost a lot of money. Could that money be better spent on other crime reduction initiatives that would get better results. Say like adding more officers on the street. A year or two in prison for one person cost roughly what a single officer would cost.

I know there is strong evidence out there that mandatory minimums donít have any affect on drug crimes and that Capital punishment doesnít have an affect on murder rates. So my immediate reaction is that this likely has the same failing. The people who commit these crimes do not consider the penalty when choosing to commit the crime. Iím certainly open to being persuaded if there is evidence of it being effective.
The challenge I think is that what would those officers do? If they catch someone with an illegal gun there still is no punishment. I don't think its worth chasing something if the punishments are insignificant. I sort of think they should either stop caring (like they did with weed) or seriously enforce it.

In this particular case I would think they should be taking this a little more seriously.
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Old 08-25-2019, 10:39 PM   #8
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Canada already has had a mandatory minimum for possession of a restricted firearm of 3 years. I think it’s been squashed now. But 3 years is pretty much the bar. You’d be hard pressed to find a current case of someone with no liscense at all carrying a loaded firearm and not getting 3 years at least.
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Old 08-25-2019, 10:57 PM   #9
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Canada already has had a mandatory minimum for possession of a restricted firearm of 3 years. I think it’s been squashed now. But 3 years is pretty much the bar. You’d be hard pressed to find a current case of someone with no liscense at all carrying a loaded firearm and not getting 3 years at least.
I’ll find the article if I can, but there was a case in Toronto last year where a judge handed down a 15 month sentence, minus time served of course, in a case where the defendant was convicted of possession of a loaded, PROHIBITED firearm and other sundry offences.

Most of the nonsense reasons were that the defendant was black, but still a very short sentence for carrying a loaded gun that very few can even get a license to posses in Canada

Then we have the courts playing catch and release with people charged with gun crimes. Arrest them, take their illegal gun, arraign them and then kick them back onto the street where they probably have another gun by the end of the day.

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Old 08-26-2019, 07:39 AM   #10
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Iíll find the article if I can, but there was a case in Toronto last year where a judge handed down a 15 month sentence, minus time served of course, in a case where the defendant was convicted of possession of a loaded, PROHIBITED firearm and other sundry offences.

Most of the nonsense reasons were that the defendant was black, but still a very short sentence for carrying a loaded gun that very few can even get a license to posses in Canada

Then we have the courts playing catch and release with people charged with gun crimes. Arrest them, take their illegal gun, arraign them and then kick them back onto the street where they probably have another gun by the end of the day.
I just donít know what alternative you would prefer unless we go the privatized jail system like in the states (which has proven to be completely ineffective). Holding prisoners costs money. A lot. Statistically the overwhelming majority of offenders granted bail do not go on the commit violent crimes while on bail. Obviously you hear of the cases in the news when they do and it sensationalizes it. We live in one of the safest countries in the world in one of the safest times to live in history. Iím not sure we have some epidemic on our hands here we just have lighting fast access to news everywhere and things can seem bigger then they are.
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Old 08-26-2019, 07:40 AM   #11
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I agree we have a criminal justice system that is too lenient but I really do hate the idea of mandatory minimums. As much as some judges make me crazy I’d rather have the hope of common sense rather than something completely arbitrary. Especially when you have gun laws that are sometimes counter intuitive and confusing. For example a .25 caliber handgun is prohibited, this is a very small handgun that too be honest doesn’t make a lot of sense to prohibit. (I think it was a popular gang gun at some point and they decided to prohibit it.) A .44 magnum (huge hand gun Dirty Harry) or a .40 Glok ( popular police gun) are merely restricted. If a stupid kid finds Grandpas .25 and sells or simply possess it I think it’s a little harsh to send him to jail for 3-5 years because he was in violation of a prohibited weapon law. Now someone saws off a shotgun to use in a crime, sure throw the book at him, but I’d still rather have a human deciding the difference.

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Old 08-26-2019, 07:59 AM   #12
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Mandatory minimums are fine when a firearm is being used in the commission of a crime.

For example, if a prohibited .25 pistol was found in Billy's attic that grandpa had left there, whatever.

If a .25 is found on someone's person during a drug deal, car jacking, ect... tack on the mandatory minimum.
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:03 AM   #13
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i think we should start with some mandatory minimums - as it seems that it is really getting out of control in toronto and you have to wonder how much longer it is until it spreads to other cities

based on what i have read it seems that in TO it is common for victims to not co-operate with police. Perhaps this si the stasrt of a slipperly slope, but perhaps in those cases there should be some punishment for "the victims"
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:30 AM   #14
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Would bringing back carding in TO help with the current problem?

I disagree with it, fundamentally... but if its returned combined with laws that actually have teeth for those carrying illegal handguns in a city center, it may actually have an impact.
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:35 AM   #15
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i think we should start with some mandatory minimums - as it seems that it is really getting out of control in toronto and you have to wonder how much longer it is until it spreads to other cities

based on what i have read it seems that in TO it is common for victims to not co-operate with police. Perhaps this si the stasrt of a slipperly slope, but perhaps in those cases there should be some punishment for "the victims"
You're asking for a monstrous fundamental change in western democracy to start punishing victims for not speaking out.

Especially considering they're not speaking to police because they'll likely get killed later for snitching. Man, it's scary to hear what citizens would do to their rights if we just crowd sourced from our population.
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:45 AM   #16
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Have mandatory minimums for gun crimes worked in other areas of the world they have been tried. What have Brisbaneís results been, Are they statistically significant?

Increased incarceration will cost a lot of money. Could that money be better spent on other crime reduction initiatives that would get better results. Say like adding more officers on the street. A year or two in prison for one person cost roughly what a single officer would cost.

I know there is strong evidence out there that mandatory minimums donít have any affect on drug crimes and that Capital punishment doesnít have an affect on murder rates. So my immediate reaction is that this likely has the same failing. The people who commit these crimes do not consider the penalty when choosing to commit the crime. Iím certainly open to being persuaded if there is evidence of it being effective.
I mean these are good questions to ask if the intention is harm reduction, but let's be real, mandatory minimums are about retribution and perceived "justice".
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:01 AM   #17
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Actually, I think they are about having a set punishment for crimes that would cause one to rethink breaking the law, and stop the shootings that are reaching epidemic levels in Toronto.
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:02 AM   #18
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Actually, I think they are about having a set punishment for crimes that would cause one to rethink breaking the law, and stop the shootings that are reaching epidemic levels in Toronto.
This is most likely the case, but if you go with your logic, it's hard to indulge in sneering condescension.
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:07 AM   #19
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this just in:

criminals are criminals because they dont care about laws, not because laws are too lenient

see: the death penalty, minimum sentences for drugs in the usa, any criminal ever in the history of mankind
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:11 AM   #20
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this just in:

criminals are criminals because they dont care about laws, not because laws are too lenient

see: the death penalty, minimum sentences for drugs in the usa, any criminal ever in the history of mankind

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...ns-on-carding/
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