Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ah, right, sorry.

All good man.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Not a vote against it, but...of course.


https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?x...841D7AA1238F2B

We've tried nothing but we are all out of ideas meme.

[Ben_in_Canada]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

I'm not a Trudeau person at all, but this is some expert politicking.

Anyone voting against this bill is committing political suicide.

I tip my hat.

As a sports shooter, I'm really disappointed..
I agree we all want to reduce gun violence. 2 years ago, they banned the sporting rifles in the name of public safety and since then gun violence has continued to rise. We said it then and we're saying it now, it's not the legally owned guns doing this, why are spending precious resources removing legally obtained property (restricted license holders are subject to daily background checks) instead of focusing on the real issues.
I fear this is the end of shooting sports in Canada (Olympics etc)

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Ben_in_Canada

As a sports shooter, I'm really disappointed..
I agree we all want to reduce gun violence. 2 years ago, they banned the sporting rifles in the name of public safety and since then gun violence has continued to rise. We said it then and we're saying it now, it's not the legally owned guns doing this, why are spending precious resources removing legally obtained property (restricted license holders are subject to daily background checks) instead of focusing on the real issues.
I fear this is the end of shooting sports in Canada (Olympics etc)

How does this impact sports shooting at all? Are there handgun or assault rifle shooting sports?

(genuine question - I don't know)

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Ben_in_Canada

As a sports shooter, I'm really disappointed..
I agree we all want to reduce gun violence. 2 years ago, they banned the sporting rifles in the name of public safety and since then gun violence has continued to rise. We said it then and we're saying it now, it's not the legally owned guns doing this, why are spending precious resources removing legally obtained property (restricted license holders are subject to daily background checks) instead of focusing on the real issues.
I fear this is the end of shooting sports in Canada (Olympics etc)

What about this seizure?

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/analysis-...kade-1.5782983

I don't know much about guns, but that article indicates at least some of these were legally acquired. Sounds like maybe laws would have been broken transporting the legal hand guns, and

However, some firearms owners have pointed out that five of those six guns appear to be a non-restricted AR-variant manufactured by Spectre Limited, called the WS-MCR

[Ben_in_Canada]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

How does this impact sports shooting at all? Are there handgun or assault rifle shooting sports?

(genuine question - I don't know)

The Olympic Programme of Shooting Sport includes 15 total events of three disciplines: Rifle, Pistol and Shotgun. Olympians compete in six men events, six women events and three mixed team events.
https://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/...pic_games.ashx

There are also Multigun (or 3 gun) and Service rifle matches that use modern sporting rifles (assault rifles have been banned in Canada for a very long time)

[Ben_in_Canada]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What about this seizure?

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/analysis-...kade-1.5782983

I don't know much about guns, but that article indicates at least some of these were legally acquired. Sounds like maybe laws would have been broken transporting the legal hand guns, and

There are too many questions surrounding that seizure. First we heard it was at the blockade, then it was near the blockade, last I read it was at a farm house. The restricted firearms may be registered to that address? I don't know, but if harm was intended it was good police work. And that is what we want, Police policing, not being repo men.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Ben_in_Canada

There are too many questions surrounding that seizure. First we heard it was at the blockade, then it was near the blockade, last I read it was at a farm house. The restricted firearms may be registered to that address? I don't know, but if harm was intended it was good police work. And that is what we want, Police policing, not being repo men.

Why does it matter where they were found? You don't think it is an issue that those firearms can be legally acquired, and then potentially used against police? They were fortunate to stop this before it became a massacre. We can't just count on good police work to succeed all the time, we don't need those guns in Canada.

[Ben_in_Canada]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Why does it matter where they were found? You don't think it is an issue that those firearms can be legally acquired, and then potentially used against police? They were fortunate to stop this before it became a massacre. We can't just count on good police work to succeed all the time, we don't need those guns in Canada.

It matters a lot in the context of criminal charges where and how they were found. There's a lot of questions about what happened near the border, like the RCMP 'disabling farm equipment' to prevent it being used in the blockade (destroyed).
For those firearms to be purchased legally the buyer has to have background checks, references etc. we are not in America, the laws and culture around firearms are night and day different.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Ben_in_Canada

The Olympic Programme of Shooting Sport includes 15 total events of three disciplines: Rifle, Pistol and Shotgun. Olympians compete in six men events, six women events and three mixed team events.
https://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/...pic_games.ashx

There are also Multigun (or 3 gun) and Service rifle matches that use modern sporting rifles (assault rifles have been banned in Canada for a very long time)

..

[Wormius]

Off-topic - why would there need to be separate womens and mens shooting events??

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Ben_in_Canada

It matters a lot in the context of criminal charges where and how they were found. There's a lot of questions about what happened near the border, like the RCMP 'disabling farm equipment' to prevent it being used in the blockade (destroyed).
For those firearms to be purchased legally the buyer has to have background checks, references etc. we are not in America, the laws and culture around firearms are night and day different.

Going to ignore the bellyaching about the RCMP taknig steps to ensure their safety...

As to your second part, that's the issue, isn't it? These exceedingly deadly weapons can be purchased legally and then used illegally. A common refrain is that legal firearms owners are not the problem, but these people appear to have purchased at least some of them legally, and were intending to use them in ways that are not permitted. Seeing their beliefs, and things like the Diagolon patch tell me that if the system worked, the background checks should have excluded them from purchasing them.

I think the facts are clear, these weapons shouldn't be in Canada. I'm sorry your sport is caught up in it, but I'm willing to sacrifice your hobby for the safety and lives of our citizens and law enforcement. I know you don't agree with it, but I'm permitted to have that opinion and fight for it.

[Ben_in_Canada]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I think the facts are clear, these weapons shouldn't be in Canada. I'm sorry your sport is caught up in it, but I'm willing to sacrifice your hobby for the safety and lives of our citizens and law enforcement. I know you don't agree with it, but I'm permitted to have that opinion and fight for it.

I disagree with your assertation that the facts are clear, statistics can be bent and skewered to represent a view so I'm not going to share any that will just have us going around in circles.
I know the law enforcement professionals I share my hobby with think this ban/freeze isn't going to deter or reduce criminals being criminal.

[TorqueDog]

How does sport shooting survive in other countries?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooti..._Qualification

Clearly there are countries with more stringent gun laws than ours that still maintain an Olympic sport shooting program.

[opendoor]

In Finland at least, to get a license for a handgun for sport shooting you need to have documented proof of 2 years of sport shooting before they'll grant you a license for your own gun.

They used to grant them more easily, but there were a couple of school shootings where the perpetrators had gotten pistols by claiming they were going to use them for sport shooting, so they tightened up the laws.

[Ben_in_Canada]

Originally Posted by opendoor

In Finland at least, to get a license for a handgun for sport shooting you need to have documented proof of 2 years of sport shooting before they'll grant you a license for your own gun.

They used to grant them more easily, but there were a couple of school shootings where the perpetrators had gotten pistols by claiming they were going to use them for sport shooting, so they tightened up the laws.

In Canada, for a license you need to complete and pass a course, provide 2 references, list any conjugal partners for the last few years and pass the background check. To have restricted firearms, you need to pass an additional course and are subject to daily police background checks as well as provide proof of range membership (there are 2 main categories for ownership, collector and target shooter, restricted firearms can only be used at RCMP approved ranges). I believe they are looking to extend the background checks to lifetime. Often the process of buying a restricted firearm takes weeks, sometimes months to process.

[PeteMoss]

I'll be honest - I'm sure it sucks for good gun people, but I'm not particularly swayed by these arguments. You can still buy a gun and shoot it. It might have to be garbage gun compared to what you buy now and I'm sure that sucks.

But there are a bunch of stuff out there you can't buy because its dangerous no matter how good of an owner you are. My neighbour might be the greatest long range missile owner ever - but I still don't want him to have it. If they restrict the types of guns you can buy - and you can still hunt adequately with what they let you buy - I'm not going to shed a tear for you. I understand your annoyances, but you won't win me to your side.

[Fuzz]

I'd be OK with hand guns still being "own able" if the condition was they never left the gun range. All transfers facilitated by registered ranges, range to range only. If they are for target sports, no reason to have them away from the one spot they can be legally used, right? Yes, maintenance, but they can be attached to the range.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

How does this impact sports shooting at all? Are there handgun or assault rifle shooting sports?

(genuine question - I don't know)

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague for a few days, and probably for good reason.

I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Yep, lots of people are completely unaware that hundreds of thousands of Canadians participate in handgun and multi-gun sports safely every day throughout the country. It's the safest sport in the country, with hundreds of thousands of rounds discharged towards paper or steel targets without incident.

Here are just a few off-the-top of my head disciplines with handguns:

IPSC - International Practical Shooting Confederation
- It's an action-packed run and gun style sport, shooting an "obstacle course" style stage, timed, and can be very physically and mentally demanding. Complete it as fast as you can, as accurately as you can. Your score is your hits on each target area (scrored as A, B, C, hits) divided by your time. The motto is DVC (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (DVC) meaning accuracy, power, and speed)
- This is the largest handgun sport in Canada and the world. Canadians compete internationally and do quite well.
- This sport was granted IOC Olympic "observer" status recently, and will most likely be a demonstration sport in the next few cycles
- It's the national sport of the Philippines, for context

USPSA - United States Practical Shooting Association
- Basically the U.S. version of IPSC, but they have to have their own thing
- The rules are more or less the same, with some small variance

Steel Challenge - Speed Shooting, 8 set stages, shoot them from mostly stationary positions and no movement (except for 1 stage), and do them as quickly as possible.

IDPA - Defensive style shooting, borne out of the U.S., but there are lots and lots of international competitors.

Here are just a few disciplines with modern sporting rifles (semi-autos):
- Service Rifle (typically for military/ex-military and law enforcement)
- 3 Gun / Multigun (pistol, carbine/sporting rifle, shotgun) all in stages designed to make you move, transition, and hit as many targets as possible

All of these sports are either instantly dead, or will die a slow death as people won't be able to replace broken equipment, or as they retire from the sport.

Basically at the participation rates, it's like all of the sudden you banned adult rec soccer or hockey something similar.

2.2 Million actively licensed firearms owners, and millions more firearms, yet none of us commit any crimes. Why? Because we're literally checked every single day.

This government enjoys the ignorance of the everyday Canadian as it pertains to firearms. That's OK, they'll come for your "thing", whatever it is that you enjoy doing, next.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'd be OK with hand guns still being "own able" if the condition was they never left the gun range. All transfers facilitated by registered ranges, range to range only. If they are for target sports, no reason to have them away from the one spot they can be legally used, right? Yes, maintenance, but they can be attached to the range.

Yeah, that's been suggested before by people who know nothing about firearms. They call that "Central Storage". We call it "Merry Christmas Mr. Criminal".

You seem to forget that you'd have to then have every single gun club in Canada be fortified like Ft. Knox with militarized guards with 24 hour security.
You're giving the criminals basically a free pass to get hundreds and thousands of "free guns". Most clubs are in rural areas because of NIMBY'sm to begin with.
You don't want anything stored there, they barely have power or cell service.