The Athletic: LeBrun: Flames in a tough spot

[blender]

Flash, I'll give you Backlund all day long; not a great deal by Treliving, but can't agree about Gio. He's on his Norris contract, not his retirement contract. He's well below market value and likely will be til it expires.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

No one wants to hear the changes I would make to this roster.

Is that a promise?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Cap room and low expectations are things expansion teams also have
What GMs need are assets
But I don’t understand the position that the core of the team was young when he took over. How so?
Anyways agree to disagree

There has been one expansion team in the cap era. Shall we use them as a yardstick against which to compare the GM’s performance?

I actually think it’s one of the bigger disappointments, that we never used the cap space inherited from Feaster to our advantage in acquiring assets. Instead we’re the team asking trade partners to eat salary.

[TheScorpion]

I still can't believe that the Flames had to package a 2nd to get rid of Regehr right before the Sabres traded Regehr for 2 2nds

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sutter was a good GM for one move only - getting Kipper. Kipper was the #1 reason why the Flames made their run, and won the division a season later. He played as well as a goalie can for those 2 years.
Sutter was an elite coach and not a good GM.
He was a terrible drafter, and made similar moves that people criticize Tree for - trading away picks for roster players. (2nd for Bourque, 3rd for Staios, etc)
He did poorly on a lot of his deals. Some get a lot of attention but others are forgotten more. But among his bad deals you have the Phaneuf trade, Jokinen to NYR, Primeau+2nd for Colin Stuart and Anton Stralman (who he then traded for a pick). Some people hate the Okotoker for Stuart deal too, but at least I get why that one was made. He had some good ones too (getting Cammy, trading for Conroy twice) but overall he was more bad than good with trades.

Darryl Sutter was not a good GM.

Only kipper???

Langkow, tanguay, huselius, cammalleri, bouwmeester. He can never be blamed for sitting on his hands, and brought in a plethora of top end talent to the team. Was he guilty of being too short term in his approach, sure. Lots of picks traded away (though I think he's traded as many or less 1st round picks as treliving has now). And he did eventually go nuts, no denying that.

But for the 6 years of his main 'prime' that was a team that was way closer to being a cup contender than anything this gm has produced. We have not had 'build upon last year' season under this gm yet!! If that isn't spinning one's wheels, I don't know what is. Is that all on one guy, no. Lots of factors involved, but he owns this failing program.

I'm gonna be 40 in a few years here. Being a 6 year old when this team won, was the peak of my fandom. The 04 (miracle?) cup run was the unreal. Life's too short, I'm getting tired of waiting, I am sick of management trying to extend a useless cores prime to make a few bucks, send give the perception they give as crap about winning.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I still can't believe that the Flames had to package a 2nd to get rid of Regehr right before the Sabres traded Regehr for 2 2nds

The second was to take on kotalik as we were in salary cap jail

http://www.nhl.com/ice/m_news.htm?id=567189

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Question, Flash — do you think the Flames should be trading Giordano this summer?

More and more I’m starting to wonder if he’s the guy on his way out.

I said it 8 months ago. He should’ve been traded last summer at his peak.

[Harry Lime]

But, if buffalo got 2 2nds for regehr, then it was essentially 3 2nds to get rid of kotalik.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Question, Flash — do you think the Flames should be trading Giordano this summer?

More and more I’m starting to wonder if he’s the guy on his way out.

Should they? Absolutely. His play has fallen off a cliff relative to his play last season. Hard to imagine that turning around and. If you can get out of that contract and bring in quality assets in the process you absolutely have to do it. Unfortunately this isn't the NFL and NHL GM's have a hard time separating feelings from business. Yes trading your captain is a difficult move for a variety of reasons but if making the right move was easy every GM would be successful. That said I don't think you move him for a bag of pucks as even in the last year of his contract he's probably going to be serviceable in a 2nd or 3rd pairing role. It would have to be a trade where the Flames are getting quality assets.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Question, Flash — do you think the Flames should be trading Giordano this summer?

More and more I’m starting to wonder if he’s the guy on his way out.

The Gio situation is pretty similar to the Iggy situation. Now is the time to shop Gio. He still has some value and could be a good addition to many teams which results in a healthy return for the Flames. If he starts next season with Calgary his trade value will be significantly diminished.

[Burning Beard]

So if you trade Gio now and lose Hamonic and Brodie then who is left to mentor Andersson, Valamaki and Kylington? I feel like those guys have all so far benefited from having a Norris winning defenseman showing them the ropes.

[Harry Lime]

If you trade Gio and sign Brodie, then the anchor and mentor role goes to Brodie, who isn't as suited for it. If you trade Gio and Brodie walks, you have to sign or trade a Gio replacement, which is likely a downgrade.

I'd keep Gio until he's done taking 1x1 contracts, or can no longer play in the top 4.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

He did poorly on a lot of his deals. Some get a lot of attention but others are forgotten more.

Like trading away a 27-year-old Lydman for a 3rd round pick. Lydman went on to remain a #3 d-man for the next 6 years.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

So if you trade Gio now and lose Hamonic and Brodie then who is left to mentor Andersson, Valamaki and Kylington? I feel like those guys have all so far benefited from having a Norris winning defenseman showing them the ropes.

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

If you trade Gio and sign Brodie, then the anchor and mentor role goes to Brodie, who isn't as suited for it. If you trade Gio and Brodie walks, you have to sign or trade a Gio replacement, which is likely a downgrade.

I'd keep Gio until he's done taking 1x1 contracts, or can no longer play in the top 4.

The players have played with Gio long enough though, that I think you can trust them to hold onto the experience, and continue to grow from it although those vets aren't around anymore.

The young defensive crop is fairly young still. Each player has a lot of growth potential still. Ultimately, it's gonna be on the players themselves to reach their potential, not Gio.

Don't hold onto Gio for a mentor role, and have his value plummet. Flames need to learn from the Iginla trade to not hold onto to an ageing star player too long. If you're not in cup contending territory, then you gotta maximize those assets while you have the chance.

They gotta move Gio this offseason if they get the chance at a good return back. Flames weakness is lack of blue chip prospects in the organization. There's moves that can be made this summer that can really address that hole. In the salary cap era, you have to build from within.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Question, Flash — do you think the Flames should be trading Giordano this summer?

More and more I’m starting to wonder if he’s the guy on his way out.

Personally if this team misses the playoffs or is embarrassed in round 1 the 2 players I am shopping hard at the draft are Gaudreau and Giordano. You want to shake this core up you trade the star player and old leader. With Seattle coming up and Gio at risk of being exposed it would be wise to capitalize on his value now. Gaudreau would be traded for obvious reasons that have been discussed at length over the past several months.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Should they? Absolutely. His play has fallen off a cliff relative to his play last season. Hard to imagine that turning around and. If you can get out of that contract and bring in quality assets in the process you absolutely have to do it. Unfortunately this isn't the NFL and NHL GM's have a hard time separating feelings from business. Yes trading your captain is a difficult move for a variety of reasons but if making the right move was easy every GM would be successful. That said I don't think you move him for a bag of pucks as even in the last year of his contract he's probably going to be serviceable in a 2nd or 3rd pairing role. It would have to be a trade where the Flames are getting quality assets.

When you look at the overall numbers his offensive production has fallen off a cliff from a career season where everything went in ... that's true.

I wouldn't say his "play" has.

He's still top 50 in almost every single underlying number.

His points/60 is in line with his two seasons prior, individual stat rates are all in and around last season.

Expected goals for down from last year, but similar to the previous two, and his expected goals against is basically square with last year.

The decline of Mark Giordano is way over stated ... pucks aren't going in for sure, but that's a teamwide issue this year.

[Flash Walken]

I agree, Giordano is still far and away the best defender on the team and outside of Tkachuk, the best skater on the roster.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

The Gio situation is pretty similar to the Iggy situation. Now is the time to shop Gio. He still has some value and could be a good addition to many teams which results in a healthy return for the Flames. If he starts next season with Calgary his trade value will be significantly diminished.

Disagree.

With Iginla, the team had missed the playoffs for several years in a row. The only decent young players in the system were Nemisz, Reinhart, Ferland, Backluncd, Brodie, Bouma, Baertschi. Those were literally the only players with any sort of value who were under 28.

There, a rebuild was obviously needed. Here, all that is needed is good asset management. Am I in favor of trading Brodie and Hamonic? Yes.

But Gio is a step too far.
Trading away all older assets, leaving no leadership whatsover, is Oileresque.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Disagree.

With Iginla, the team had missed the playoffs for several years in a row. The only decent young players in the system were Nemisz, Reinhart, Ferland, Backluncd, Brodie, Bouma, Baertschi. Those were literally the only players with any sort of value who were under 28.

There, a rebuild was obviously needed. Here, all that is needed is good asset management. Am I in favor of trading Brodie and Hamonic? Yes.

But Gio is a step too far.
Trading away all aolder assets, leaving no leadership whatsover, is Oileresque.

As with all things, return is what matters when thinking about trades. I'm a Gio fan - look at may name. But I'm not going to say "don't trade Gio ever". I'm going to say "what deal can you get for Gio?"

It's fair to question who's left to lead. But you do have some guys with experience - Backlund, Lucic, Ryan, Brodie. I don't know if they are leadership candidates - that's more about personality than years often times. You have Monahan, who may be one of those quiet leaders. You have Tkachuk, who's more of an emotional guy. You have Lindholm who may be a "lead by example" guy. Monnuie and Lindholm will be 26 next year - that's veteran status. Andersson is going to wear a letter at some point too.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I still can't believe that the Flames had to package a 2nd to get rid of Regehr right before the Sabres traded Regehr for 2 2nds

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

The second was to take on kotalik as we were in salary cap jail

http://www.nhl.com/ice/m_news.htm?id=567189

Yeah, exactly. Feaster gave away a 2nd to dump Kotalik so he could chase Brad Richards. Robyn Regher should've been a career Flame. He had a bad year and everyone thought it was done. Initially the trade to Buffalo was blocked, the Sabres liked him so much the owner reached out to Robyn to convince him IIRC.