[News] Flames done for the day. Gustafsson, Davidson, Forbort only deals

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

...I would have moved Andersson and valimaki plus the 2 firsts to grab stone and get out from under Neal. Considering what the flames ended up having to do to move Neal, I consider that a bargain.

LOL (Am I doing this right?)

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

LOL (Am I doing this right?)

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

You'll know when you're doing it right if you get banned by an anonymous moderator account for it.

I think it's wonderful how you show up the rest of the mod group though. Way to make them all look as Petty and antagonistic as you.

[Strange Brew]

Fans seem to consistently under estimate how expensive it is to get out from under a bad contract. Especially one like Neal's that had four years left on it. It almost never happens.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The biggest hindsight argument/fabrication is that the flames wouldn't have been able to sign him or that the had expressed interest in signing only with Vegas

All the reports from the media and from Stone himself have been that he was dead set on Vegas. Friedman and Marek said it's well known that was where he was going to sign.

If that was the case then the flames wouldn't have been in on him so hard.

Unless the Flames pulled out when they were informed he wasn't going to re-sign with us following the trade going through.

I'm sure the Flames were weighing the value of trading for Stone and risking him not signing vs what they would pay for an immediate extension.

But with Friedman, Marek, and Stone himself all confirming he only had one long-term destination in mind, I think it's worth taking at face value:

Friedman: "You said when you were talking about your future with your representative, you said Vegas was the one place you wanted to go. Was there anywhere else where you thought 'I may end up here for the time being'?"

Stone: "Yeah, there was lots of teams I thought maybe I was going to go to. But when the time came, there was a trade in place with Las Vegas it was pending talking with my representatives pending coming to an agreement. I couldn't be more excited, I wanted to get that deal done"

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I think Forbort is alright as a Deryk Engelland-type but these Flames can't afford to give out another Deryk Engelland contract.

At the end of the day the Engelland contract was actually okay as far as UFA deals go. The money was a bit high, but not completely unreasonable. He played the entire term of the detail and was always a player who when healthy was in the lineup. No need to buy the player out, or play him in the minors at the end of the deal...that's a win.

The way I view it, the Flames paid a premium salary to bring in a tough nosed leader type to be a third pairing defenceman. But that was all, and the term of the deal was reasonable and he played all three seasons.

When they had to replace Engelland they targeted an upgraded player in Hamonic who made what was more or less the same money once you apply the cap inflation, and had 3 more years of term. But to do so the Flames parted with some extremely valuable assets to do so.

So now that it's time to essentially replace Hamonic, I would rather look at a third pairing type who plays a similar style who can fit within a lighter salary, and not lose anymore assets to do so. So at this time the cost of keeping Forbort is going from a 4th round pick to a 3rd round pick plus the money. Or will there be an older player on the market that you can get for less money and term who can play a third pairing role and not lose the pick? If you can find that player, I'd rather go that way and save the money for a forward upgrade.

[Strange Brew]

re: Engelland. Vegas got the great deal with him. Cheap one year deals near the league minimum.

Flames had to overpay Engelland to get him here, but they definitely identified the right kind of player to sign. To ever truly become an elite team in a cap league, you're going to need players like Engelland that can significantly outperform their contracts.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

for some of us on this board it's not a hindsight argument.

The biggest hindsight argument/fabrication is that the flames wouldn't have been able to sign him or that the had expressed interest in signing only with Vegas.

If that was the case then the flames wouldn't have been in on him so hard.

The difference was Vegas kept the salary open to add at the deadline and the flames wasted it on neal. Vegas could do a deal without sending salary to the cheapest franchise in the league and the flames had to move salary to complete the transaction.

The price to move salary was a heck of a lot more expensive than the deal that didn't involve salary, so he ended up in Vegas.

There is not some big mystery when it comes to signing elite players.

If the flames were in on stone until the 11th hour it's because they expected to keep him.

I would have moved Andersson and valimaki plus the 2 firsts to grab stone and get out from under Neal. Considering what the flames ended up having to do to move Neal, I consider that a bargain.

It’s pretty obvious Treliving thought he had a shot at re-signing Stone - until he didn’t, and then he was out. That was the right move at that point.

[868904]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

It does look like Forbort is the one they'll try to keep beyond the season.

However, way too soon to write off Gustafsson, I think he has yet to shine, does have a couple big assists already and it's worth considering that some players take a little time to settle in on the new team.

The problem for Gustafsson is that the Flames haven't gotten many powerplays since he's been here. He's a powerplay specialist but hasn't been able to show much because the Flames don't get calls.

He must be wondering why Gaudreau doesn't draw the same amount of penalties as Kane does, while playing a very similar game and being defended the same way.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BigRed

Agreed. But I think we need to keep Brodie for that to be a reasonable possibility.

I also remain a fan of Kyllington who was just starting to get his legs going good before the deadline Nobody seems to have much confidence in him though for some reason, which I guess has to tell you something.

Pairs for next year IMO that would be good:

Gio-Brodie
Hanifin-Anderson
Valimaki-Kyllington/Forbort

Yelesin

I don't think there's much chance we keep Gus, even if we want to.

You are assuming we re-sign Brodie. And I am all for re-signing him. But if he walks, then I think the chances of (and need for) re-signing Gustafsson, increase significantly.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by 868904

The problem for Gustafsson is that the Flames haven't gotten many powerplays since he's been here. He's a powerplay specialist but hasn't been able to show much because the Flames don't get calls.

He must be wondering why Gaudreau doesn't draw the same amount of penalties as Kane does, while playing a very similar game and being defended the same way.

Exactly. Plus, it takes a while for PPs to develop plays that work, build chemistry, etc.

Gustafsson's biggest potential benefit for the team is to aid the PP. And there simply hasn't been enough time and opportunity for that to take hold.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think it's wonderful how you show up the rest of the mod group though. Way to make them all look as Petty and antagonistic as you.

Can dish it but not take it huh?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by blankall

Was it clear Stone was not going to sign?

The only thing I saw was that Stone gave no indication of his intentions to sign post trade, and it was a bit of a surprise that he did sign right away in Vegas.

Either way, it's obviously a hindsight argument, to state Calgary should have thrown a bunch of large assets at Stone. However, I do think it makes a difference as to how the Flames are perceived in future negotiations with upcoming UFAs.

Clear to who? The fans or BT as he's talking trade? Again, we don't know what we don't know, but the assumption BT doesn't know more than us fans when dealing up trades is silly.

One, since the trade Friedman has reported Stone was set on Vegas, and to your point, Stone sings right away in Vegas post trade. None of those things are coincidences. Contract talks or some sort of feeling out from buyers on Stone clearly occurred before the trade (in fact Friedman reported as such). Respective suitors for Stone were given the opportunity to get some sort of assessment on whether Stone would sign with them or not, that much is clear.

Based now entirely on hindsight, it would appear that BT likely got info that at the very least his path to re-sign stone was less likely. Something that is only clear to us in hindsight, but to suggest that it's also only clear to BT in hindsight is silly. The GMs know far far much more info than what gets reported to us in the moment on these things that we only find out about after......if at all.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Can dish it but not take it huh?

I definitely can't respond with LOL without getting banned.

I also definitely cant ban posters.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by 868904

He must be wondering why Gaudreau doesn't draw the same amount of penalties as Kane does, while playing a very similar game and being defended the same way.

Probably because Kane is in a different league that Johnny. The tighter Kane gets checked, the better he plays.

[1Nite]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Probably because Kane is in a different league that Johnny. The tighter Kane gets checked, the better he plays.

Kane although on the smaller side has got a size advantage, but the biggest thing is probably the speed.

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by flash walken

i definitely can't respond with lol without getting banned.

I also definitely cant ban posters.

lol

[delayedreflex]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

At the end of the day the Engelland contract was actually okay as far as UFA deals go. The money was a bit high, but not completely unreasonable. He played the entire term of the detail and was always a player who when healthy was in the lineup. No need to buy the player out, or play him in the minors at the end of the deal...that's a win.

The way I view it, the Flames paid a premium salary to bring in a tough nosed leader type to be a third pairing defenceman. But that was all, and the term of the deal was reasonable and he played all three seasons.

When they had to replace Engelland they targeted an upgraded player in Hamonic who made what was more or less the same money once you apply the cap inflation, and had 3 more years of term. But to do so the Flames parted with some extremely valuable assets to do so.

So now that it's time to essentially replace Hamonic, I would rather look at a third pairing type who plays a similar style who can fit within a lighter salary, and not lose anymore assets to do so. So at this time the cost of keeping Forbort is going from a 4th round pick to a 3rd round pick plus the money. Or will there be an older player on the market that you can get for less money and term who can play a third pairing role and not lose the pick? If you can find that player, I'd rather go that way and save the money for a forward upgrade.

The other amazing thing about Engelland is that him signing with Vegas counted as their pick from us during the expansion draft. I am not sure if that necessarily entered the equation when we signed him, but in retrospect that was another nice bonus.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

At the end of the day the Engelland contract was actually okay as far as UFA deals go. The money was a bit high, but not completely unreasonable. He played the entire term of the detail and was always a player who when healthy was in the lineup. No need to buy the player out, or play him in the minors at the end of the deal...that's a win.

The way I view it, the Flames paid a premium salary to bring in a tough nosed leader type to be a third pairing defenceman. But that was all, and the term of the deal was reasonable and he played all three seasons.

When they had to replace Engelland they targeted an upgraded player in Hamonic who made what was more or less the same money once you apply the cap inflation, and had 3 more years of term. But to do so the Flames parted with some extremely valuable assets to do so.

So now that it's time to essentially replace Hamonic, I would rather look at a third pairing type who plays a similar style who can fit within a lighter salary, and not lose anymore assets to do so. So at this time the cost of keeping Forbort is going from a 4th round pick to a 3rd round pick plus the money. Or will there be an older player on the market that you can get for less money and term who can play a third pairing role and not lose the pick? If you can find that player, I'd rather go that way and save the money for a forward upgrade.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

re: Engelland. Vegas got the great deal with him. Cheap one year deals near the league minimum.

Flames had to overpay Engelland to get him here, but they definitely identified the right kind of player to sign. To ever truly become an elite team in a cap league, you're going to need players like Engelland that can significantly outperform their contracts.

Strange Brew nailed what I was trying to say. Guys like Engelland can be key contributors to good teams and his $2.9 million contract worked for that iteration of the Flames, but this version of the Flames needs to find that value for a lesser cost.

I'd look to Yelesin, first and foremost. I think he has a lot of Engelland in him.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by AC

All the reports from the media and from Stone himself have been that he was dead set on Vegas. Friedman and Marek said it's well known that was where he was going to sign.



Unless the Flames pulled out when they were informed he wasn't going to re-sign with us following the trade going through.

I'm sure the Flames were weighing the value of trading for Stone and risking him not signing vs what they would pay for an immediate extension.

But with Friedman, Marek, and Stone himself all confirming he only had one long-term destination in mind, I think it's worth taking at face value:

Friedman: "You said when you were talking about your future with your representative, you said Vegas was the one place you wanted to go. Was there anywhere else where you thought 'I may end up here for the time being'?"

Stone: "Yeah, there was lots of teams I thought maybe I was going to go to. But when the time came, there was a trade in place with Las Vegas it was pending talking with my representatives pending coming to an agreement. I couldn't be more excited, I wanted to get that deal done"

I don't think what you're saying and I'm saying are mutually exclusive.

I'm saying the flames couldn't get a deal done without sending back salary. Stone is saying there were multiple teams involved as a destination.

The Sens had a deal in place with Vegas that they liked. It was contingent on atone signing an extension, so they made him available to talk extension.

I think they also had a deal in place with the Flames that they liked less.

I don't think stone picked his destination, I think the Senators had a clear preference on what trade they wanted to do and based on their borderline bankruptcy and the fact they didn't take any serious salary back in any of their other moves that day, it was the deal that didn't cost them any money.

I think if the flames had 10x8 on the table and weren't sending salary back, 1st+valimaki would've made stone a flame.

I get taking it at face value, but also, what else is he going to say after signing an 8 year deal?

Elliott also said this,

I think if Calgary got him there, the Flames loved their chances of it eventually occurring. But word is Ottawa’s ask included Juuso Valimaki, and for the second year in a row Calgary rejected anyone’s attempts to pry loose the Finnish defenceman.

He previously speculated that the Sens had offered Stone 10.5x5 but that would've left him having to negotiate again at 32, perhaps leaving money on the table.

I'm not going to make an argument that Vegas isnt a much more attractive destination than Calgary, but I think you can pay players to pay there.

I think when Burke went on TV to say that it would've cost x for the flames to match what stone makes in Vegas because of the high taxes in Alberta (lol), I think he was betraying what the flames would have had to offer Stone to get him to stay. I think Elliotte saying the flames were confident they could keep him means they knew the figure his camp wanted as well.

In the end Stone may have preferred making 9.5 in Vegas to making 10.5 in Calgary. But what we also know is that the flames couldn't possibly afford to give him that contract with Neal on the roster, and so the risk was in that he might leave before they had the opportunity to move the salary necessary to extend him. In Vegas, it happened right away.

To me what betrays this is Meloney saying they went to bed thinking they had the deal done, and Friedman quoting another GM that once Brannstrom was on the table, no other team was going to beat that offer.

If the flames thought they had the deal done, and no one was going to beat the brannstrom offer, it stands to reason Brannstrom wasn't on the table the night before the deadline.

I think the flames thought they had Stone in a deal that would've sent Neal out of town, and when Vegas offered Brannstrom with no Salary attached, Vegas took the cheaper offer knowing Stone signing an extension wouldn't be a roadblock, while Stone knew wherever be was going he'd be getting his big payday with term attached.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by flash walken

i don't think what you're saying and i'm saying are mutually exclusive.

I'm saying the flames couldn't get a deal done without sending back salary. Stone is saying there were multiple teams involved as a destination.

The sens had a deal in place with vegas that they liked. It was contingent on atone signing an extension, so they made him available to talk extension.

I think they also had a deal in place with the flames that they liked less.

I don't think stone picked his destination, i think the senators had a clear preference on what trade they wanted to do and based on their borderline bankruptcy and the fact they didn't take any serious salary back in any of their other moves that day, it was the deal that didn't cost them any money.

I think if the flames had 10x8 on the table and weren't sending salary back, 1st+valimaki would've made stone a flame.

I get taking it at face value, but also, what else is he going to say after signing an 8 year deal?

Elliott also said this,

he previously speculated that the sens had offered stone 10.5x5 but that would've left him having to negotiate again at 32, perhaps leaving money on the table.

I'm not going to make an argument that vegas isnt a much more attractive destination than calgary, but i think you can pay players to pay there.

I think when burke went on tv to say that it would've cost x for the flames to match what stone makes in vegas because of the high taxes in alberta (lol), i think he was betraying what the flames would have had to offer stone to get him to stay. I think elliotte saying the flames were confident they could keep him means they knew the figure his camp wanted as well.

In the end stone may have preferred making 9.5 in vegas to making 10.5 in calgary. But what we also know is that the flames couldn't possibly afford to give him that contract with neal on the roster, and so the risk was in that he might leave before they had the opportunity to move the salary necessary to extend him. In vegas, it happened right away.

To me what betrays this is meloney saying they went to bed thinking they had the deal done, and friedman quoting another gm that once brannstrom was on the table, no other team was going to beat that offer.

If the flames thought they had the deal done, and no one was going to beat the brannstrom offer, it stands to reason brannstrom wasn't on the table the night before the deadline.

I think the flames thought they had stone in a deal that would've sent neal out of town, and when vegas offered brannstrom with no salary attached, vegas took the cheaper offer knowing stone signing an extension wouldn't be a roadblock, while stone knew wherever be was going he'd be getting his big payday with term attached.

lol