[News] UPD: Coyotes renounce the rights to draft pick Mitchell Miller

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

You do understand there's levels of severity right? Yah, I'm sure we've all done stupid things as a teenager in the past, but I can guarantee 99% of us have never verbally and physically assaulted someone for 7 years. The "stupid things" this kid did is way way beyond normal teenager behavior. I'm honesty quite offended you'd lump them in the same category.

And if he's not a normal teenager, it would take a truly terrible person to think he should be punished with the same level of severity as an adult.

What happened may be nearly as traumatic for the offender as it was the victim. This type of abnormal behaviour doesn't happen just because this kid chooses to be evil. He was a child with the brain of a child. He was heavily susceptible to his upbringing, parental guidance, abuse etc.

He may still be traumatized by his actions as an 18 year old and having that brought up again and again and again could be quite damaging for his mental health.

Does that absolve him of all responsibility? Well of course not, he ultimately did do these things and now he must live with them.

This thread is basically How Not to Handle Mental Health in Children 101. It's really quite sad how few people understand the psyche of a child and how much they are the product of their environment.

And people wonder why our justice system sucks at rehabilitation. It's because people don't want it. They want fire and brimstone justice. Eye for an eye. A world where you wear your transgressions for everyone to see and judge you on at all times.

This kid probably needs as much help as the victim does. His actions were anything but normal and he was 14, not 34.

Anyone saying "I knew right from wrong when I was 14" is completely tone deaf and missing the point here. This kid clearly didn't. He may have serious mental health issues that need attention.

But no, let's attack him, over and over and over and do our best to pressure the Coyotes to ruin his chances in the NHL.

We don't even know what kind of life he's lived since then. Maybe he's had to undergo years of therapy because even the prospect of an in person apology causes him to have complete mental breakdowns, maybe his parents were and still are abusive, maybe they don't know what's wrong with him and live every day hoping they can give their troubled kid the best life possible.

The idea that this is as simple as evil kid vs mentally disabled black teen is to completely disregard everything we as a society, and a lesser extent this forum, has been pushing for when it comes to mental health and compassion. It's quite disgusting and embarrassing, frankly.

And if I were the Coyotes, I'd make an effort to provide any and all help available for this kid and the victim. How about showing the world that we're not all terrible people and compassion does exist? I know it's a lot harder than just cutting this kid off and doesn't fulfill that need for base level vengeance but hey, maybe they have better control over their base emotions that most of us.

[N-E-B]

The fact that this kid sent a letter to every NHL team to apologize but couldn’t apologize to the victim face to face speaks volumes. He’s trying to cover his own ass instead. He isn’t sorry.

If he’s good enough to play I have no issues with him playing if he showed true remorse and took real steps to make sure he’s fixing it. I think everyone deserves a second chance. The issue to me is that he hasn’t shown to be genuine or remorseful. It’s disgusting.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

And people wonder why our justice system sucks at rehabilitation. It's because people don't want it. They want fire and brimstone justice. Eye for an eye. A world where you wear your transgressions for everyone to see and judge you on at all times.

Ah yes, an in-person apology is exactly the same as pissing on a lollipop, making a disabled Black person eat it, while smashing his face into a brick wall. Eye for an eye indeed.

If he had shown the remorse he wants us to believe he had, he would have been forgiven just like Hunter was. He didn't, and his actions were so heinous that his victim spoke out about him. If he had apologized and made amends in the last 4 years, this wouldn't even be a story.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Everyone deserves a second chance.

But, I would hope that the Coyotes organization at the very least have made it abundantly clear to the kid that there is no room for error, that he is on thin ice. Something along the lines of “we believe in your remarkable talent, but we really need you to be a team player and mature a little.”

There’s no room for this in hockey.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Ah yes, an in-person apology is exactly the same as pissing on a lollipop, making a disabled Black person eat it, while smashing his face into a brick wall. Eye for an eye indeed.

Good god. This is so stupid.

You think if this kid apologized face to face it would have made any difference to the reactions here? It's just another bullet in the gun you're using to put him down and make yourself feel better. Even if he had apologized and this story came out, you'd just be trotting out the same arguments and saying he didn't mean it.

You have no compassion for the victim. All you care about is getting your rocks off with white hot rage towards the offender.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

This isn't really true. There may be a desire to have players do this, but the degree to which it happens is largely up to them. There isn't anything included in contracts or anything that mandates this.

That's not entirely true. Most teams have a contract stipulation of at least 10 events at the team's choosing that a player must attend to, and are usually community/charity related. I think the 10 is just in there to act as a legal requirement, but if they are asked to do 20 or 30 events, they would be expected to comply.

[PsYcNeT]

Yeah I don't even buy that it's "learned at home" in the modern age.

Online discourse is so poisoned and terrible that kids get pulled into this pipeline at a young age and turned into heinous ghouls without (or perhaps because of a lack of) parental interference.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

That's not entirely true. Most teams have a contract stipulation of at least 10 events at the team's choosing that a player must attend to, and are usually community/charity related. I think the 10 is just in there to act as a legal requirement, but if they are asked to do 20 or 30 events, they would be expected to comply.

hmm didn't know that. Thanks.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Teroy

My goodness people, the kid was 14. He made a mistake but he deserves a second chance. The comments from some of you are disturbing.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what comments in this thread were disturbing? That we hope the kid shows that he is truly remorseful before he gets any sniff of a chance at the NHL? I don't recall anyone wishing this kid ill health or other harm to him.

I guess the worst one I could see was someone calling the kid a psycho when he was bullying the other kid?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Good god. This is so stupid.

You think if this kid apologized face to face it would have made any difference to the reactions here?

There wouldn't be reactions here. There wouldn't be a thread. He would have been forgiven, like the other accused (assuming he genuinely felt remorse), and his victim would not have spoken out about it creating the story in the first place.

And, if somehow it did become a story, his victim would be speaking out for him just like he did for Hunter.

And yes, when the victim forgives, that would entirely change the reaction.

Also Cecil, what have I actually said negatively about him? That I think he needs to show he has been redeemed to be given the second chance? That's what you think is white hot rage? I haven't wished him ill will or even said I hope he doesn't make the NHL. I have only said that it is up to him to earn the second chance, not us to automatically give him one.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Good god. This is so stupid.

You think if this kid apologized face to face it would have made any difference to the reactions here? It's just another bullet in the gun you're using to put him down and make yourself feel better. Even if he had apologized and this story came out, you'd just be trotting out the same arguments and saying he didn't mean it.

Seems to make a difference with the other bully. The only reason we're hearing of this is because of the victim.

Honestly, you spent how many words imagining the mental state of Mitchel and how this incident could have impacted him? Where's a single word of empathy for Isaiah. This is how you think compassion for the victim works? Are you even sure who the victim is in this situation?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Seems to make a difference with the other bully. The only reason we're hearing of this is because of the victim.

Honestly, you spent how many words imagining the mental state of Mitchel and how this incident could have impacted him? Where's a single word of empathy for Isaiah. This is how you think compassion for the victim works? Are you even sure who the victim is in this situation?

lol. I expected someone to go there.

So I'm the bad guy because a thread about the offender, where nearly every single post is about the offender and I bring that up and now I'm a hypocrite.



You can do better Pepsi. Didn't take you for the mob mentality type.

I also like how I'm getting quoted but only selectively. No one actually wants to talk about mental health, they just want to continue with the rage. Why am I not surprised?

[Oling_Roachinen]

You want us to talk about mental health without having any indication what, if any, affects this has on Mitchell or his mental health at the time? What a cop-out.

The only person who has shown mental health effects from this is the victim and his family. They are very clear that seeing him being drafted was painful. Seeing him play in the NHL will be much more painful I'm sure.

Like what do you want us to say "I'm sure it was traumatic for Mitchell to see all the blood from his victim after smashing his face on the wall"? Like what else can we talk about for Mitchell's mental health.

[Jiri Hrdina]

So if we agree that we should be concerned for the offender's mental health, then is that where his and his parents' focus has been? If not should it be?
Or has his focus been on continuing to develop his hockey career.
No one is saying this guy should be abandoned or tossed aside, but I don't know why someone who has done these things deserves a chance to continue to develop a pro hockey/NHL career.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

And if he's not a normal teenager, it would take a truly terrible person to think he should be punished with the same level of severity as an adult.

What happened may be nearly as traumatic for the offender as it was the victim. This type of abnormal behaviour doesn't happen just because this kid chooses to be evil. He was a child with the brain of a child. He was heavily susceptible to his upbringing, parental guidance, abuse etc.

He may still be traumatized by his actions as an 18 year old and having that brought up again and again and again could be quite damaging for his mental health.

Does that absolve him of all responsibility? Well of course not, he ultimately did do these things and now he must live with them.

This thread is basically How Not to Handle Mental Health in Children 101. It's really quite sad how few people understand the psyche of a child and how much they are the product of their environment.

And people wonder why our justice system sucks at rehabilitation. It's because people don't want it. They want fire and brimstone justice. Eye for an eye. A world where you wear your transgressions for everyone to see and judge you on at all times.

This kid probably needs as much help as the victim does. His actions were anything but normal and he was 14, not 34.

Anyone saying "I knew right from wrong when I was 14" is completely tone deaf and missing the point here. This kid clearly didn't. He may have serious mental health issues that need attention.

But no, let's attack him, over and over and over and do our best to pressure the Coyotes to ruin his chances in the NHL.

We don't even know what kind of life he's lived since then. Maybe he's had to undergo years of therapy because even the prospect of an in person apology causes him to have complete mental breakdowns, maybe his parents were and still are abusive, maybe they don't know what's wrong with him and live every day hoping they can give their troubled kid the best life possible.

The idea that this is as simple as evil kid vs mentally disabled black teen is to completely disregard everything we as a society, and a lesser extent this forum, has been pushing for when it comes to mental health and compassion. It's quite disgusting and embarrassing, frankly.

And if I were the Coyotes, I'd make an effort to provide any and all help available for this kid and the victim. How about showing the world that we're not all terrible people and compassion does exist? I know it's a lot harder than just cutting this kid off and doesn't fulfill that need for base level vengeance but hey, maybe they have better control over their base emotions that most of us.

Couple of points, a kid can just be a ######, not all reprehensible behavior is due to some deep seated mental health issue, I would agree if a kids a ###### its because his parents screwed up though.

from the Coyotes perspective this is a business decision, and as such they will almost certainly regret picking this kid, telling kids who are a ###### at 14 that they are the best never changes their behavior, pro athletes by their nature, upbringing and special status during their formative years tend to being a bit ######y at the best of times and this kids a real doozy, my guess is we will be hearing disturbing stories about him in other circumstances fairly soon, I'm guessing he aint no prince as a boy friend either.

[wired]

Originally Posted by Hey Connor, It's Mess

Those don't sound like the misguided mistakes of a teenager. I bet he won't play a single game in the NHL whether he's good enough to or not.

My guess is he does not play a single game in the Arizona system. Drafted, but unsigned.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Sheesh, this thread...

To be clear, understanding the reasons a bully acts the way they do does not give permission to do so or a lack of consequences for their actions. That would excuse the behavior, and that simply cannot happen anymore.

Also, I get a kick out of people being outraged about the race here, and I understand the concern with everything that's happened over the last few months, but the real tragedy here is taking advantage of a person with mental challenges/disabilities. The reason he was able to trick him into doing disgusting and degrading things is because of those mental challenges, and to me, that's purposeful targeting of a victim because of a notable difference. That is where this gets into despicable territory for me. He took advantage of that young man in a way that showed zero empathy for his situation, and zero compassion for his struggles.

That's just ####ing disgusting. Only the lowest of the low do that. Add in the lack of contrition and I don't see any reason to give this player any leeway and goodwill. Again, he broke a social contract, a pretty big one at that. Whatever happens to him now is on him and really nobody else.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

lol. I expected someone to go there.

So I'm the bad guy because a thread about the offender, where nearly every single post is about the offender and I bring that up and now I'm a hypocrite.



You can do better Pepsi. Didn't take you for the mob mentality type.

I also like how I'm getting quoted but only selectively. No one actually wants to talk about mental health, they just want to continue with the rage. Why am I not surprised?

You're better than this, too. The "mob mentality" or "eye for an eye" stuff is just nonsense. You've blown the issue up into some moral dilemma in your defence of Miller, and for what?

I went back and read every post. There were 3 (out of how many) that suggested anything close to how you've tried to paint the people you're arguing with, and one of those posts was walked back.

Whether it's wanting to see him meet up with Kane or Reaves on the ice, hoping he doesn't make the NHL, wishing the Coyotes hadn't drafted him, or wanting to see an apology to the victim, what exactly is wrong with any of the four? A guy does what he does, and the worst thing the majority are hoping for is... he doesn't make the show? And the worst thing people wished for (that didn't happen) was not getting drafted or a genuine apology? Really? That's what you're spending all this time fighting against?

This is rage to you, huh? This is the mob? Looking for an apology or otherwise hoping a 4th rounder doesn't make the NHL is the mob trying to take their blood? My god dude, what an embarrassingly high bar you've set for the conduct of people. The nerve of some people hoping someone with his history doesn't get the gift of 800k in his bank account for a few years. You're right man, we're the monsters here.

The main point of this is that this is not typical, this is not to be lumped in with everything else one might be ashamed about at 14. This is seven years of really really awful behaviour, and it should be viewed uniquely as such. The main disagreement is over that, over excusing this as among the type of behaviour we were all guilty of, because it's not. Nobody is asking to see his head smashed against a brick wall, nobody is asking that he go to jail forever, nobody is asking that he be forced to eat every urinal puck in every stadium he goes to. People are siding with the victim and asking for an apology, and putting the burden of proof on Miller.

Oh no, the mob wants Miller to apologize to the victim. The horror. The. Horror. Thankfully you're here to fight against it.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So if we agree that we should be concerned for the offender's mental health, then is that where his and his parents' focus has been? If not should it be?
Or has his focus been on continuing to develop his hockey career.
No one is saying this guy should be abandoned or tossed aside, but I don't know why someone who has done these things deserves a chance to continue to develop a pro hockey/NHL career.

What career should he be allowed to pursue?

I don't know how we can so confidently assert what his focus has been for the last four years. It does seem like he has continued to play hockey but what exactly do we know besides that? It does seem clear he has not given an in person apology to the victim which is disappointing. I guess for some people that is the tipping point in the whole thing.

[Oling_Roachinen]

One thing I disagree is the removal of him from hockey. The 'bad apples' in my school who played hockey only got much worse as they petered out of it (due to lack of skill). Most of the weapons and drugs coming into my school were former/current jocks at the time (in association with the FK/FOB). Maybe my school was unique at the time.

Removing an already bad apple from perhaps the one thing that grounded him and motivated him, especially if he was a poor student, removing him from the one thing that might keep him on track, ending his potential career, seems like probably the worst parenting move. Especially as many on this board will be the first to talk about how great organized sports is for developing children.

Also I like the whole "We are not excusing his behaviour! But also it was his parents fault" who here knows if he had a bad homelife at all, some people (especially children) are just little####s. White privilege is giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming it wasn't his fault.