Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Was a healthy scratch on opening night.

Scratched Oct. 27

Scratched Nov. 22

Scratched Nov. 30

Scratched for another BOA December 2nd.

Scratched December 16

Scratched December 22

Scratched February 8

Does an NHL regular get scratched 10% of the season?

So only once in the second half of the season. The argument was that he showed progression over the season, and the declining scratches demonstrate that.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

On a team with one of the worst forward groups in the league. Lazar needs to improve because right now, he is just about replacement level on almost any team IMO.

Everyone likes his speed and easy to still see some potential, but his name in the lineup is written in pencil. He needs to win a job in camp.

I agree with most of this. He’s still regularly playing in the NHL which is more than I can say for most 2nd round picks... therefore, the trade is working out.

[Sylvanfan]

Getting back to Bennett, at this point I think you have to try one more season where you bring him into camp as a winger and make sure that he knows that's what he'll do. It might well work out that Bennett will become a better player
Elsewhere in the NHL. But I think the team needs to be sure that they made every reasonable effort to allow the player to get better. Which at this point I don't think the winger role has been given a proper chance.

I get that both Bennett and Lazar have regressed from their first two years in the league. If it happens once more no doubt their trade values will be really low. But at this point I would rather risk trying one more year and sunk cost than selling at a discount to get something.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

When your head coach chooses to play Tanner Glass, Chris Stewart, and Troy Brouwer....then yes.

Gully's lineup decisions were bad.

Lazar is fine. It's nonsense to talk about the Flames having one of the worst forward groups in the league. It's nonsense to suggest Lazar isn't a regular. It's nonsense to suggest he won't improve.
But not withstanding Glass, this is where stuff goes off the rails.
Of course you play Brouwer over Lazar, as will (I'd guess) every coach in the NHL.
Then the GM traded for Stewart at the deadline, so you play him, obviously. Then you scratch him, like happened.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Lazar is fine. It's nonsense to talk about the Flames having one of the worst forward groups in the league. It's nonsense to suggest Lazar isn't a regular. It's nonsense to suggest he won't improve.

But not withstanding Glass, this is where stuff goes off the rails.

Of course you play Brouwer over Lazar, as will (I'd guess) every coach in the NHL.

Then the GM traded for Stewart at the deadline, so you play him, obviously. Then you scratch him, like happened.

Why do you play Brouwer ahead of Lazar? Stewart was a waiver wire pick up.

Both players are awful. If a coach has control of his lineup the way Treliving says his coaches do, then you don’t play them. They make everyone they play with worse.

Playing Brouwer was indefensible. He was our worst player all season long, Stewart excluded.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So only once in the second half of the season. The argument was that he showed progression over the season, and the declining scratches demonstrate that.

"Only Once"

"In the second half of the season"

And you know what, that isn't even true! He was a healthy scratch on February 28th as well. His scratches were so numerous last year I missed one!

Lofty expectations here on Calgarypuck.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

"Only Twice"

"In the second half of the season"

And you know what, that isn't even true! He was a healthy scratch on February 28th as well. His scratches were so numerous last year I missed one!

Lofty expectations here on Calgarypuck.

He was still an NHL regular. Not saying he blew anyone away, he played in 80% of the games... I'd say that is pretty regular.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by VilleN

He was still an NHL regular. Not saying he blew anyone away, he played in 80% of the games... I'd say that is pretty regular.

Technically correct! The Best kind of Correct!

[Bingo]

I'm under no illusion that Lazar is a safe bet to move into the top six, I'm actually concerned he may never be top nine. But as a fourth line forward he improved last year. He was one of the team's only consistent physical forwards and his wheels helped the fourth line avoid getting hemmed as badly.

He's an NHL player but not with a lot of real estate below him.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Some people apparently find the idea that youngsters can improve year to year to be a baffling one.

Lazar and Bennett are both VERY likely to improve. Young players usually do. It’s called development. It’s normal. It’s usual.

Pepper24’s idea that they are unlikely to improve flies in the face of common sense and NHL history. To think Bennett can’t or won’t improve is definitely taking an actively pessimistic approach.

Flames gave up a 2nd round pick for Lazar hoping for more than a 4th line player. I just don't see him in the top 9 and him staying on the 4th line. We have Mangiapane, Dube etc. in line for top 9 over him. Gamble that hasn't paid off.

Bennett has been declining since his rookie season and development has slowed. Maybe he bucks the trend this year but can only go by what he's recently done which is a 4th overall pick that hasn't live up to the hype. He failed at center and we'll see what he can do at wing in the final year of his contract.

With both on the last year of their contracts we'll have answers by end of this upcoming season. One maybe sticks around but I don't see both of them here beyond that.

Realist approach.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm under no illusion that Lazar is a safe bet to move into the top six, I'm actually concerned he may never be top nine. But as a fourth line forward he improved last year. He was one of the team's only consistent physical forwards and his wheels helped the fourth line avoid getting hemmed as badly.

He's an NHL player but not with a lot of real estate below him.

To me Bingo, Curtis Lazar is a 13th forward. Perfect guy to have in the dressing room, but not good enough to play every night. I think collectively, this entire organization and fanbase needs to raise the level of standards we have for every player and personnel within the Flames umbrella.

And yes, that includes our 4th liners who simply weren't good enough. I know a lot of people will say, "well they're 4th liners, we shouldn't expect too much from them anyway." Well, personally think that's loser talk. Everyone has a job and everyone needs to contribute on both ends of the ice to get this team where it needs to be.

Take for instance Brett Connolly, guy is a 4th liner on the Caps and he has 2 consecutive 15 goal seasons. He outscored our entire 4th line this season and with his help, the Caps are only 6 wins away from the Stanley Cup. To me, this is the type of standard we need to set. We've accepted lower standards before and all it's gotten us is 3 decades of futility and mediocrity.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by VilleN

He was still an NHL regular. Not saying he blew anyone away, he played in 80% of the games... I'd say that is pretty regular.

4th line and healthy scratch 20% of the time has playing in Europe next contract written all over it.

[Strange Brew]

^ About right. Lazar has 15 goals in 245 NHL games. Trending up? 3 goals in his last 102 games.

There are things to like about Lazar and sure he can improve. Maybe. But with that kind of production, his hold on an NHL job is very, very tenuous. Is there any other forward in the NHL with that kind of production over such an extended period?

[DazzlinDino]

Curtis Lazar looks like a good younger replacement for Stajan; From there the Flames need to rebuild that 4th line add more youth, skill and speed with guys capable of developing into 2nd, 3rd line roles. Our bottom lines were not difference makers last season; Hopefully with some lineup changes and some chemistry on the second, third line we can get some much needed contribution.

[yourbestfriend]

Lazar looked horrible the first 3/4 of the season. Down the stretch he was noticeably better at generating offense. His defensive prowess and intangibles were never in question, you'd just expect to see more based on where he was drafted and how much we gave up for him. He was on pace for about 15pts last year. I think if he can manage 20pts+ this coming season that would do wonders for our depth.

Bennett is way more of a wild card than Lazar. Sometimes he's the best player on the ice, sometimes he does things that should have him demoted to junior. I'm thinking if he can match or improve on his rookie season stats while being more consistent that would be a win.
BTW did Peter's ever say if he liked Bennett at C or W? I've personally always seen him as a center. He's got really good speed but GG's strategy didn't really emphasize offense through the rush or transition so it was more difficult from him to show it. Honestly, if they used him like Mcdavid or Kessel (if you prefer him on wing), where you kind of wind him up and get him the puck when's he's moving at top speed, that's where I think he'd be most dangerous. Watching the Vegas/Winnipeg series, I think he'd do very well in a system that Gallant has implemented where speed through the neutral zone is key.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by pepper24

4th line and healthy scratch 20% of the time has playing in Europe next contract written all over it.

Could be, he definitely improved towards the end of last season. I like what I saw in the last 1/4 of the season... we’ll see though.


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[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

To me Bingo, Curtis Lazar is a 13th forward. Perfect guy to have in the dressing room, but not good enough to play every night. I think collectively, this entire organization and fanbase needs to raise the level of standards we have for every player and personnel within the Flames umbrella.

And yes, that includes our 4th liners who simply weren't good enough. I know a lot of people will say, "well they're 4th liners, we shouldn't expect too much from them anyway." Well, personally think that's loser talk. Everyone has a job and everyone needs to contribute on both ends of the ice to get this team where it needs to be.

Take for instance Brett Connolly, guy is a 4th liner on the Caps and he has 2 consecutive 15 goal seasons. He outscored our entire 4th line this season and with his help, the Caps are only 6 wins away from the Stanley Cup. To me, this is the type of standard we need to set. We've accepted lower standards before and all it's gotten us is 3 decades of futility and mediocrity.

I think we need to be careful not to cherry pick though.

If you go straight to NHL averages the 10th forward has an average of 19 points, the 11th forward has an average of of 15 points, and the 12th forward has an average of 13 points.

The Flames last year had Stajan, Lazar and Hathaway at 10-12th in forward scoring with 13, 12 and 12

They're behind but the issue lies much more with the upper half of the roster than the fourth.

The bigger issue is the top of the roster and the fact that they need a better second line to trickle things down and help the fourth line. Past that they need quicker players on the bottom end to hold serve until the big boys come out.

By line the NHL had the following this season.

Top Line : 69 points (85/65/55)
Calgary: 85/65/50 (Tkachuk as third best forward)
Difference: -5

Second Line : 42 points (48/42/36)
Calgary: 45/41/26 leaking
Difference: -14

Third Line : 27 points (32/27/23)
Calgary: 25/25/22
Difference: -10

Fourth Line: 19 points (19/15/13)
Flames: 13/13/12
Difference: -9

The middle six is the culprit, the Flames need to ...

a) add to the top six and create a trickle down
b) get young, quick with upside at the bottom half of the roster so they can improve and not decline through a season

I don't see Lazar as a problem with his foot speed, but if he's beat out he's beat out.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think we need to be careful not to cherry pick though.

If you go straight to NHL averages the 10th forward has an average of 19 points, the 11th forward has an average of of 15 points, and the 12th forward has an average of 13 points.

The Flames last year had Stajan, Lazar and Hathaway at 10-12th in forward scoring with 13, 12 and 12

They're behind but the issue lies much more with the upper half of the roster than the fourth.

The bigger issue is the top of the roster and the fact that they need a better second line to trickle things down and help the fourth line. Past that they need quicker players on the bottom end to hold serve until the big boys come out.

By line the NHL had the following this season.

Top Line : 69 points (85/65/55)
Calgary: 85/65/50 (Tkachuk as third best forward)
Difference: -5

Second Line : 42 points (48/42/36)
Calgary: 45/41/26 leaking
Difference: -14

Third Line : 27 points (32/27/23)
Calgary: 25/25/22
Difference: -10

Fourth Line: 19 points (19/15/13)
Flames: 13/13/12
Difference: -9

The middle six is the culprit, the Flames need to ...

a) add to the top six and create a trickle down
b) get young, quick with upside at the bottom half of the roster so they can improve and not decline through a season

I don't see Lazar as a problem with his foot speed, but if he's beat out he's beat out.

How does this compare to say, Calgary's western conference playoff competitors?

What were the averages in the west this year among teams that made the dance?

[Monahammer]

People ardently defending Bennett as still having skill and room to grow but hucking Lazar under the bus are blind. Not saying Lazar ever had the same upside as Bennett, but I think he has just as much chance of improving more under a new coach and with more of a leash. Does anyone remember that play last season where he protected the puck on a penalty kill, brought it all the way down the ice carrying an opposing player on his back, and almost scored? That is stuff you can't teach.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Flames gave up a 2nd round pick for Lazar hoping for more than a 4th line player. I just don't see him in the top 9 and him staying on the 4th line. We have Mangiapane, Dube etc. in line for top 9 over him. Gamble that hasn't paid off.

Bennett has been declining since his rookie season and development has slowed. Maybe he bucks the trend this year but can only go by what he's recently done which is a 4th overall pick that hasn't live up to the hype. He failed at center and we'll see what he can do at wing in the final year of his contract.

With both on the last year of their contracts we'll have answers by end of this upcoming season. One maybe sticks around but I don't see both of them here beyond that.

Realist approach.

This is where I disagree, if Lazar ends up being a good 4th liner for us I think the 2nd rounder was well spent and that the gamble paid off. 2nd rounders have less than a 50% chance of ever becoming an NHL regular. Even if Lazar drops out of the league all-together by next season, he still would have provided roughly the same value that a typical 2nd rounder would provide. It wasn't a very big gamble, and to me the trade isn't really worth dissecting.