2024 Toronto Blue Jays Season Thread

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

Aw man, not Spencer "Horowitz" Horwitz! Good luck to him in Cleveland.

Pittsburgh now, he got traded for three pitchers.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Fun fact - Jimenez is younger than Horwitz. Hopefully he can figure things out with the bat…the Jays track record of developing the bats of acquired guys isn’t very good though.

The Jays also signed Yimi Garcia.

[Parallex]

Sigh... oh look the Bluejays acquired an expensive all-glove player. Because why address your obvious deficiencies when you can triple-down on a failed process. Surely third time is the charm!

20M against the luxery tax for 4 years on a glove-first 2nd baseman who was 17% below average at the plate last year... Fire Atkins.

[Jason14h]

I like the trade

We complain Jays have no speed - Get a great base stealer
We didn't have a 2nd baseman , now we have the best D 2B in MLB
We are only paying $10 mil in real dollars leaving more money to get a real DH and/or Closer

Yes his hitting has decreased the last 2 seasons which is worrisome, BUT if he bounced back to 2022 level hes a top 10 MVP candidate. Thats a risk teams with money should take, and Cleveland's of the world can't

We will (most likely) be rebuilding when his high contract values kick in and will either deal him if he bounces back hitting wise, or have an overpaid bum during the rebuild when salary is super low anyways

As long as this isnt the end of improving the team I actually really like this move . Now go get a impact bat, closer, and SP and maybe we are a wildcard team

[Jason14h]

ESPN Grading of the Trade

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/sto...trade-analysis

Blue Jays grade: B+

The Blue Jays strike with a significant winter meetings trade -- and one pretty much out of nowhere considering they had several internal options on the roster to play second base in Horwitz, Will Wagner and Orelvis Martinez. Those three aren't natural second basemen, however, and certainly aren't in the same area code defensively as Gimenez, who has won three straight Gold Gloves and earned the Platinum Glove in 2023 as the American League's top overall defensive player.

Gimenez's value rests to a large degree on that D: +17 DRS in 2022, +23 in 2023 and +20 in 2024. Via DRS, only new Blue Jays teammate Daulton Varsho has more defensive runs saved over the past three seasons than Gimenez -- which means, yes, the Blue Jays arguably have the two best defenders in the majors. Toronto pitchers are smiling right now, no doubt. The Statcast metrics and the eye test back up that assessment. Gimenez is a natural shortstop with extraordinary range and an above-average arm.

His offense is another matter. When the Guardians signed Gimenez to a seven-year, $106.5 million extension in spring training of 2023, they were betting on his offensive breakout at age 23 in 2022, when he hit .297/.371/.466 with 17 home runs, 7.4 WAR and a sixth-place finish in the MVP voting. He had middling exit velocity numbers, however, and he has regressed the past two seasons, going from 25 batting runs above average in 2022 to minus-1 in 2023 to minus-13 in 2024 (his hard-hit rate ranked in just the eighth percentile).

Still, even given the below-average offense, Gimenez was a valuable player this past season with 4.0 WAR. While he is signed through 2029 (with a club option for 2030), the hitch is that he's now getting expensive: $10.5 million salary in 2025, $15.5 in 2026 then $23.5 million from 2027 to 2029. That gets a little hefty for a glove-first player, but it's still reasonable. And in lieu of missing out on Shohei Ohtani last year and Juan Soto this year, maybe the Jays are viewing this as an alternative path to success: pitching and defense. At this point, I'd love to see them double down on that approach and trade for Nolan Arenado to play third or Cody Bellinger for the outfield.

One added bonus: If Bo Bichette leaves as a free agent after 2025, Gimenez certainly has the range and enough arm to move to shortstop. Sandlin is a useful bullpen arm, but after allowing 24 home runs the past two seasons, he isn't really a high-leverage guy. The Jays still need to add more depth there.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

As long as this isn't the end of improving the team I actually really like this move . Now go get a impact bat, closer, and SP and maybe we are a wildcard team

That's the thing... if he was cheap I wouldn't be nearly as down on this as I am because it would mean that there would be payroll room for improvement... but he isn't cheap. The Blue Jays are now 13M away from the 1st CBT threshold, which is what I (reasonably I believe) think their payroll limit is at. The Jays aren't going to get an impact bat, a high leverage reliever, and a Starting Pitcher for 13M.

This is their "Big" move of the off-season. Burning 20M on a hope and a prayer that what looks like an outlier 2022 for Gimenez wasn't.

Damnit, I want to be rid of Atkins (and Shapiro if he won't get rid of Atkins).

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That's the thing... if he was cheap I wouldn't be nearly as down on this as I am because it would mean that there would be payroll room for improvement... but he isn't cheap. The Blue Jays are now 13M away from the 1st CBT threshold, which is what I (reasonably I believe) think their payroll limit is at. The Jays aren't going to get an impact bat, a high leverage reliever, and a Starting Pitcher for 13M.

This is their "Big" move of the off-season. Burning 20M on a hope and a prayer that what looks like an outlier 2022 for Gimenez wasn't.

Damnit, I want to be rid of Atkins (and Shapiro if he won't get rid of Atkins).

They have said Jays Payroll is expected to be $250m this year.

Gimenez real dollar cost is only $10 million. That more important then CBT since the Jays will have no problem getting under CBT next year or at worst in 2 years for sure.

If this is all they do they have bigger issues - Since a different player for $10 million wasnt moving the sticks either haha

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

They have said Jays Payroll is expected to be $250m this year.

Who is "they"? because all the media reports I read have said that Shapiro indicated that payroll wouldn't be significantly different then last year which came out to 238M (although I guess 250 isn't isn't really significantly more then 238 when you get down to it). Regardless I don't think they'd get an impact bat, a high leverage reliever, and a Starting Pitcher for 22M either... you could get maybe 1... maybe.

I don't believe for a moment that the CBT number isn't considered important to them. They may have been willing to blow past it for a Soto or Ohtani marquee player type but I don't believe that they'd be willing to edge past it for an upgrade on the margins.

[Jason14h]

But the CBT only gets bad in years 2/3

They will be well below in future years . This is their last shot before Vlad and Bo both walk and then guys start coming off the payroll

I agree they won’t get what they need - but I don’t think the trade affects it . It’s one of like 5 moves they realistically need to make

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

But the CBT only gets bad in years 2/3

They will be well below in future years . This is their last shot before Vlad and Bo both walk and then guys start coming off the payroll

I agree they won’t get what they need - but I don’t think the trade affects it . It’s one of like 5 moves they realistically need to make

Agreed, its a good move, however in terms of offensive impact its a project (he has to rebound coming from an off season)

Jays still need to address their lack of power, (I.e. another outfielder and a DH)

Remember their centerfielder won't be ready to start the season. (Varsho)

They have lots of issues, if they want to get in the playoffs.

[Andrew]

Jimenez to gimenez new duo 2026 slap hit u to death Drs war!

[JTech780]

Gimenez was the 8th best 2B in baseball last year in regards to fWar. At 26 years old there is solid reason to believe that the bat can improve.To classify Gimenez as a glove only player would be incorrect.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

This is their last shot before Vlad and Bo both walk and then guys start coming off the payroll

I thought the pivot from the Bo and Vlad years should have started this time last year. If they weren't willing to do that then Vlad (at least) should have been extended. Even if they really want to win this year a defensive upgrade at 2B is pretty far down on the list of things to address (and they burned trade capital and significant payroll to do it).

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I agree they won’t get what they need - but I don’t think the trade affects it . It’s one of like 5 moves they realistically need to make

It's also should have been the lowest priority. They want to go for it? Fine, go for it... but this is an inefficient poor way to go about it IMO. They've put themselves into a position where they need to get lucky (on multiple fronts) to even get into just the wildcard game. That's not a good place to be even if you're YOLOing it.

Originally Posted by JTech780

To classify Gimenez as a glove only player would be incorrect.

I don't think it is. All of his surplus value comes from his glove. In the majors he's been, on the whole, a below average hitter. Even if you go back and look at his minor league stats he was basically an average hitter coming up the ranks. I'm not altogether convinced that he's an upgrade on cheap internal options... Wagner and Horwitz both hit better then him in the minors (and last year in smaller sample sizes in the majors as well). So yeah... better defense at the cost of worse hitting (for more money), that didn't work last year and it didn't work the year before. I think this is just the Jays tripling-down on a failed strategy.

[JTech780]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I don't think it is. All of his surplus value comes from his glove. In the majors he's been, on the whole, a below average hitter. Even if you go back and look at his minor league stats he was basically an average hitter coming up the ranks. I'm not altogether convinced that he's an upgrade on cheap internal options... Wagner and Horwitz both hit better then him in the minors (and last year in smaller sample sizes in the majors as well). So yeah... better defense at the cost of worse hitting (for more money), that didn't work last year and it didn't work the year before. I think this is just the Jays tripling-down on a failed strategy.

Horwitz and Wagner aren't fits at 2B. The infield defense is already awful with Bichette and Vladdy. Gimenez had a down year last year, but previously he wasn't a negative offensively.

[bluejays]

It's a discussion board, so I don't want to come across as condescending but the key here is to look at the 2nd basemen out there. This trade was truly a good one. Yes, as a team the TEAM needs offense. We can all agree on that. This trade has a higher upside than this time yesterday as Gimenez can potentially have that upside if it all works out. But the alternative if we didn't do this trade was some pretty mediocre options with our internal guys. This simply raises the basement in that position, a position most of the league struggles with. It simply cost us money, but not a terrible amount.


They MUST find someone in LF and DH who can guarantee not only getting HRs, but also getting on base. Those are two positions that have to fulfill power needs. Some argue Varsho's defence benefits outweigh the lack of offence, and that can be debated endlessly. At CF it probably works out for the team. But DH and LF MUST produce power. 3B is kinda a nice to have option if there's someone out there but DH and LF have to be filled with someone who can hit. Atkins should be judged on what he can do with filling those roles.

[Andrew]

Jays select angel bastardo (interesting name) from red Sox in rule 5

Literally from moron Venezuela possibly drafted by moron

https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...=2024-12-11_br

[Andrew]

Crochet to sox

[Andrew]

One thing I don't think is in dispute

Gimenez is high end second basemen
Not sure best allocation of funds we have other positional needs
We need a hitter fact.
but what is available? Budget limit? Prospect capital cost.

Not a bad move we dont know the market. $$$$ thrown around like crazy

[Jiggy_12]

Sounding like Corbin Burnes will come downt to Jays & Giants and decision could come soon.

Would really like to come out on top on this one.

[SuperMatt18]

If you can get Burnes / Gimenez / OF or 3B Bat then that's a successful offseason so far for sure.

Because Burnes / Gimenez will help an already solid starting rotation and defensive group.

And if you get one strong bad to help support Vlad, plus any type of bounce back from Bo then your offense should be okay. You're not going to win a bunch of high scoring games but would be more balanced.

The problem of course is Burnes is from Bakersfield, California...so this could be another case of a player/agent using the Jays williness to spend to drive up the price of their preferred destination in San Francisco.