Toronto Blue Jays - Offseason Thread

[TheAlpineOracle]

If the Jays sign Beltran I may vomit in my mouth a little. Not that he's a bad player, he's just not what they need in the slightest.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

If the Jays sign Beltran I may vomit in my mouth a little. Not that he's a bad player, he's just not what they need in the slightest.

I dunno. Decent well rounded hitter from both sides of the plate. Not ideal because his fielding is getting worse but what the Jays need most are decent stop gaps to help compete right now (given the state of the rotation plus JD, Tulo, Martin) while they restock the farm and wait for some of those young guys to hopefully develop into major leaguers.

[Cappy]

Yeah, his defensive metrics suck, but the guy can still rake at his age. Switch hitter to boot.

at 39, he could come fairly cheap without term.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Yeah, his defensive metrics suck, but the guy can still rake at his age. Switch hitter to boot.

at 39, he could come fairly cheap without term.

If they take this route of signing people because they don't have to give them term, this will ensure the Jays don't win another championship in the foresable future , and honestly I half expect that they will sign Beltran to fill Jose's spot in RF.

Who cares if we have to sign someone for 5 years? The time to win is now. This team has ridiculous revenue across an entire country even if they aren't doing well at the gate, and they've led the AL in attendance since the day they acquired Price. I don't expect to spend like the Yankees and Red Sox, but for christ sakes, sign an appropriate player to fill a need and not worry about having to hand out a 5 year contract.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

If the Jays sign Beltran I may vomit in my mouth a little. Not that he's a bad player, he's just not what they need in the slightest.

What they need is to replace Jose and Edwin. Considering the advancing age of the roster they need to replace them without gutting the farm (hence why they've been mostly linked to guys without a qualifying offer).

They can't replace them in whole so they're kicking tires on guys that can replace them in the aggregate... with managed playing time. It's not optimal but if you want to build sustained success it's what they have to do.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

What they need is to replace Jose and Edwin. Considering the advancing age of the roster they need to replace them without gutting the farm (hence why they've been mostly linked to guys without a qualifying offer).

They can't replace them in whole so they're kicking tires on guys that can replace them in the aggregate... with managed playing time. It's not optimal but if you want to build sustained success it's what they have to do.

They need to move on from that type of player totally. There are plenty of available players out there that can fill those holes, especially in the outfield. Focusing on a 39 year old because they can get him on a one year one contract is ridiculous.

A team that has a clear timeline to win that is a couple players away from winning a championship with the revenues the Jays have need not be kicking tires on guys that can be for a one year contract. We shouldn't be running our team like we are the Tampa Bay Rays or Milwaukee Brewers here.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

They need to move on from that type of player totally. There are plenty of available players out there that can fill those holes, especially in the outfield.

Okey, I'll bite... who?

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Focusing on a 39 year old because they can get him on a one year one contract is ridiculous.

Is it? http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...infida01.shtml

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

A team that has a clear timeline to win that is a couple players away from winning a championship with the revenues the Jays have need not be kicking tires on guys that can be for a one year contract.

That's silly there is no such thing as a bad 1 year deal. That's a truism that holds across all sports.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

We shouldn't be running our team like we are the Tampa Bay Rays or Milwaukee Brewers here.

I think if they're running the team like their any other team it's like the Cleveland Indians (who are let's remember a pretty good team).

And really dude... yeah, the Jays with their $159,402,279 payroll are totally like the Rays ($71,332,249) and Brewers ($75,244,791). 100% identical. Uh huh.

[868904]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

They need to move on from that type of player totally. There are plenty of available players out there that can fill those holes, especially in the outfield. Focusing on a 39 year old because they can get him on a one year one contract is ridiculous.

A team that has a clear timeline to win that is a couple players away from winning a championship with the revenues the Jays have need not be kicking tires on guys that can be for a one year contract. We shouldn't be running our team like we are the Tampa Bay Rays or Milwaukee Brewers here.

I agree with your thinking but I think a lot of people forget that it takes two parties to make an agreement. You'd think that Reddick would be a Jay already because of fit and the team's supposed interest, yet he is not, perhaps he doesn't want to sign here, hence the team has to look to alternatives. Maybe Pearce doesn't want to sign here, team has also supposedly expressed an interest. Team has supposedly offered Cecil a 3 year contract, and still no deal.

It could just be that the Jays have made overtures to many of these "better options" but these players may not have any interest. Which is why the less than ideal options are being discussed now.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Okey, I'll bite... who?




Is it? http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...infida01.shtml



That's silly there is no such thing as a bad 1 year deal. That's a truism that holds across all sports.



I think if they're running the team like their any other team it's like the Cleveland Indians (who are let's remember a pretty good team).

And really dude... yeah, the Jays with their $159,402,279 payroll are totally like the Rays ($71,332,249) and Brewers ($75,244,791). 100% identical. Uh huh.

I wouldn't mind Beltran as an every day first basemen, but I suspect they are looking at him to fill the right field spot though. There are tons of available outfielders out there that can fill a need for the Jays. Reddick, Fowler, Desmond, Holliday, just to name a few without considering trade.

You don't get the point on the salary. Why spend 150M when if you aren't willing to add one-two pieces more to get you over the hump? Do what you need to do to win now. #### or get off the pot. Signing a guy like Beltran is exactly the way a small market team would operate. Can be had without term so go with him over better options that better fit your needs.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by 868904

I agree with your thinking but I think a lot of people forget that it takes two parties to make an agreement. You'd think that Reddick would be a Jay already because of fit and the team's supposed interest, yet he is not, perhaps he doesn't want to sign here, hence the team has to look to alternatives. Maybe Pearce doesn't want to sign here, team has also supposedly expressed an interest. Team has supposedly offered Cecil a 3 year contract, and still no deal.

It could just be that the Jays have made overtures to many of these "better options" but these players may not have any interest. Which is why the less than ideal options are being discussed now.

There's definitely the possibilities for those scenarios, but there's a lot of history that suggest it's more likely the other way around.

Let's be honest, if the Jays really wanted Reddick, he'd already be signed. They are a winning team that looks like they can contend for a World Series, have a clear opening for him in a hitter friendly park, he's reportedly great friends with Donaldson, and they SHOULD have the resources to meet his demands. I would bet a lot of money they haven't so much as even approached Reddick, much like Price last year when they kept floating they were on Sportsnet.

Instead though, we are kicking tires of guys that will take short term deals. The time to win is right now. It's not like getting rid of contracts in baseball is that hard to do. I'm not sure why the Jays are so scared of taking one on.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

There are tons of available outfielders out there that can fill a need for the Jays. Reddick, Fowler, Desmond, Holliday, just to name a few without considering trade.

Reddick - Jays have been linked to.
Fowler - Qualifying Offer
Desmond - Qualifying Offer, 1 year removed from a below average season, bats R)
Holliday - I'd rather have Beltran

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

You don't get the point on the salary. Why spend 150M when if you aren't willing to add one-two pieces more to get you over the hump?

$279,107,794

That was the Dodgers payroll and they didn't win the WS... should they spend 300M this year? If they don't win this year should they spend 320? Five years from now if they still haven't won should they be spending 475M?

The 'over the hump' argument is, to be frank, baloney. Every team that spent significant money last season (other then the Cubs) is in the same boat... how many of them added those "1 or 2 pieces" and didn't 'get over the hump'? should they now be spending more and more and more and more acquiring piece after piece after piece after piece?

It doesn't work like that, it has never worked like that.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Reddick - Jays have been linked to.
Fowler - Qualifying Offer
Desmond - Qualifying Offer, 1 year removed from a below average season, bats R)
Holliday - I'd rather have Beltran



$279,107,794

That was the Dodgers payroll and they didn't win the WS... should they spend 300M this year? If they don't win this year should they spend 320? Five years from now if they still haven't won should they be spending 475M?

The 'over the hump' argument is, to be frank, baloney. Every team that spent significant money last season (other then the Cubs) is in the same boat... how many of them added those "1 or 2 pieces" and didn't 'get over the hump'? should they now be spending more and more and more and more acquiring piece after piece after piece after piece?

It doesn't work like that, it has never worked like that.

The Cubs were a good team with excellent pitching on the verge of being great and went out and added Heyward and Zobrist to fill the glaring holes in their lineup (Lackey was the cherry on top). Needing a 1st basemen and and outfielder.........seems familiar

They didn't go and add a bunch of 35+ year olds on short/one year contracts, they went and got guys who were in their prime on long term contracts. And guess what, if it hadn't worked out, they could move both those piece to another team and move on.

The Chicago Cubs payroll was 171M. Not much more than the Jays just enough to fill some glaring holes, which comes back to the age old saying, the Jays need to #### or get off the pot.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Do what you need to do to win now. #### or get off the pot. Signing a guy like Beltran is exactly the way a small market team would operate.

This argument makes zero sense and lacks any critical reasoning.

Here are the previous teams Beltran has played for: Texas, Yankees, Cards. Which of these are small market teams? Maybe it's the Yankees you're talking about. LOL.

I suppose you'd have a point if he were declining, but no: .295 and 29 HR's. In fact, it would seem like signing Beltran is exactly the way a big market team would operate.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The Cubs were a good team with excellent pitching on the verge of being great and went out and added Heyward and Zobrist to fill the glaring holes in their lineup (Lackey was the cherry on top).

OH MY WOW! Heyward!

The guy who hit .230 with 7 HR's, 93 SO's in the regular season along with a magnificent .104 with 0 dongs in the post-season! All for $23 million over the next 8 years!

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The Chicago Cubs payroll was 171M. Not much more than the Jays just enough to fill some glaring holes, which comes back to the age old saying, the Jays need to #### or get off the pot.

The Cubs have a bunch of premium players on the pre-arb cost controlled portion of their deals (and a few vets on really good value deals)... that's how they were able to do that. Until we have that we have to build differently. We won't get that by gutting the farm system by forfeiting draft picks, trading away premium guys, and acquiring an endless supply of long-term bad money deals. What you seem to be advocating is the LA Angels Philadelphia Phillies method of team building. Yuck.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

The Cubs have a bunch of premium players on the pre-arb cost controlled portion of their deals (and a few vets on really good value deals)... that's how they were able to do that. Until we have that we have to build differently. We won't get that by gutting the farm system by forfeiting draft picks, trading away premium guys, and acquiring an endless supply of long-term bad money deals. What you seem to be advocating is the LA Angels Philadelphia Phillies method of team building. Yuck.

Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Travis, Pillar, all pre-arbitration. Our ability to add is right now, because when we have to pay Sanchez, Stroman, and Osuna, a good amount of our payroll is going to have to go to that.

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

OH MY WOW! Heyward!

The guy who hit .230 with 7 HR's, 93 SO's in the regular season along with a magnificent .104 with 0 dongs in the post-season! All for $23 million over the next 8 years!

Guy who called the team together during a rain delay and got the boys all on the same page and went out to win in extra innings resulting in a world series win.

23 million over 8 years is nothing compared to a championship

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

This argument makes zero sense and lacks any critical reasoning.

Here are the previous teams Beltran has played for: Texas, Yankees, Cards. Which of these are small market teams? Maybe it's the Yankees you're talking about. LOL.

I suppose you'd have a point if he were declining, but no: .295 and 29 HR's. In fact, it would seem like signing Beltran is exactly the way a big market team would operate.

Contracts Beltran signed in the past are irrelevent to this conversation.

No one is saying Beltran is a bad player, but he's not what the Blue Jays needs, but he's the type of player they will end up with because they don't have to extend him a long contract like they would some better fits. The Jays needs fielding, speed, and contact. Beltran only brings one of those things, and that's if he can continue to stay healthy at 40 years old.

[ClubFlames]

TAO is in fine off-season/mid-season/any losing streak over 2 games Jays suck, Roger suck form. Time to avoid this thread as much as I can.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Travis, Pillar, all pre-arbitration.

And? They had Hendricks, Bryant, Russell, Baez, Contreras... not to mention a whole whack of guys that ended up being below market value for the money they got.

Newsflash. Those guys are more valuable then our guys. Nothing against our guys but they're not as good. The Jays are not this off-season in the same situation as the Cubs were last off-season. They can't act the same way.

They're going to prudently spend money to maintain the level of success they're currently enjoying until the next wave of young talent they're building comes up to enhance the veteran talent. Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Travis, Pillar are all pre-arbitration.... this is true, so they're not going to jeopardize their ability to retain them when the Gurriels/Guerraros/Tellezs/Zuechs arrive.

They're trying to build something sustainable not have some transactional orgy that results in a bloated payroll of post-apex players and no farm system.