The problem with throwing Mudd out of an airlock is the fact that it is pretty obvious they expect him to be a reoccuring character. Ergo, plot-induced stupidity.
They could have honestly solved that, I mean Mudd had shown that he was a careful planner in this, but at the same time what kind of a conman doesn't have an escape plan, just as they went to arrest him he touches him neck and is beamed out to a waiting cloaked ship.
Instead I think they wanted this to be a bit lighter of an episode, and everyone would laugh at his Stella grabbing him and dragging him off.
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That was that moment, I guess if you wanted to prove that the Captain is indeed mentally unbalanced this was a decision that kind of backs that up.
There was a comparison to how he left the kidnapped admiral to rot earlier in the thread. If we go down this route, then there is a relevance to how Mudd was treated. The admiral was a direct threat to Lorca. Ergo, he allowed happy coincidence to eliminate her without raising a fuss. Mudd wouldn't have appeared the same threat to him. Staments could have told and convinced him that Mudd killed him 60 times over, but it is unlikely he would have truly believed that. Buying the threat that Mudd might try to take over the ship is an easier sell, and since he doesn't see Mudd as a personal threat, he was happy to serve up the so-called "fate worse than death".
Doesn't make it a good ending, of course, but does place a foil on how Lorca treated the two threats.
I really liked this last episode -- that opening space battle was probably the most visually impressive they've had in the series (and would rank up with some of the modern movies) and it was a great "Explore strange new worlds, seek out new life" style episode that still managed to tie into the plot.
Does anyone else think the version of the theme in the end credits is better than the one used in the opening credits? It's like the composer made this one first and they said "Hey, we like this, but we need to slow it down and add in some classic sounding Star Trek-y stuff like the old themes" and that made it worse.
I liked the on planet stuff, I thought it was pretty decently done.
I'm really having a hard time liking the Klingon stuff, first of all because of the language and sub title thing, their conversations take forever.
Plus the lady Klingon basically tries to get the admiral to help her defect (which is a blatent con to get on discovery), then kills the Admiral, then gets busted by the Klingon General for lying.
To be honest its like the Klingon stuff is written by one writer and the rest by another and they don't really match.
The episode was short on the Captain, which probably strengthened the episode.
With Stamats its coming clear that when he's hooked up to the drive that he's going to another universe or timeline based on how events seem to be changing in terms of personal.
Its improving but the Klingon stuff is really killing the pace whenever they're on.
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Yeah the pacing of the Klingon stuff is difficult, I wish they'd have switched to English early on, in the "yes they're speaking Klingon but for the purposes of the show we're hearing English". Didn't they do that in a movie? I want to say The Undiscovered Country.
I liked the intent of the episode, but it really was a mishmash like someone changed a bunch of stuff in the middle and didn't bother to go back and proof read the rest after the changes.
I don't like what they did with Saru, it seemed like he was under control, but then we find out it was all him, so the earlier stuff of Saru growing as a leader is undermined and now he's what, a broken character?
If Tyler is who it's rumoured he is, they've WAAAAY overplayed their hand there IMO, I know the want to setup the sudden but inevitable betrayal moment and have quickly built up this romance to give it meaning, but it'll be hollow because it won't be at all believable.
It's still entertaining, but it's frustrating because they're trying to do too much too fast I think, there's so little time for setup to give us a reason to care about these people. Though movies do it, so I guess it's just the writing. In an age where some shows have outstanding writing, it's just disappointing that it could have been so much more.
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Yeah the pacing of the Klingon stuff is difficult, I wish they'd have switched to English early on, in the "yes they're speaking Klingon but for the purposes of the show we're hearing English". Didn't they do that in a movie? I want to say The Undiscovered Country.
In undiscovered country they did a great job in the trial scene of switching to English during the trial scene. The Klingon scenes feel like they're trying to hard to say that "Hey man these are different Klingon's their language sounds like Na###o and its really slow but you have to read it. I think viewers are smart enough to know that they're speaking an alien language. They also still struggle with emoting because of the masks, and its apparent that they are masks. What worked with the older Klingons was that it was applications so they could still work their facial expressions.
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Originally Posted by photon
I liked the intent of the episode, but it really was a mishmash like someone changed a bunch of stuff in the middle and didn't bother to go back and proof read the rest after the changes.
I agree with this, its almost like they have three story lines per episode. In this episode it was the Klingon Stuff with the Admiral, the Stamets stuff and the on planet stuff, and its like they have three different writers doing them and its actually jarring.
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Originally Posted by photon
I don't like what they did with Saru, it seemed like he was under control, but then we find out it was all him, so the earlier stuff of Saru growing as a leader is undermined and now he's what, a broken character?
Yeah, I've thought about that before, that he was being controlled by the Aliens, or at least they'd heightened his sense of fear to manipulate him. But it was all him because he was basically scared of the war and wanted to leave it. So how does he go back to any kind of command structure? I tend to think that at some point in this series Burnham is going to become the XO of the Discovery and they're angling towards that by having Saru too compromised and that's where we probably get another coupe by Burnham or opportunity to rebel.
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Originally Posted by photon
If Tyler is who it's rumoured he is, they've WAAAAY overplayed their hand there IMO, I know the want to setup the sudden but inevitable betrayal moment and have quickly built up this romance to give it meaning, but it'll be hollow because it won't be at all believable.
The biggest twist they could do now is that he is who he is and not a Klingon, because they've basically hit us with a baseball bat over the head while screaming he's a spy. What would work is if a totally nondescript crewman turns out to be the Klingon so we can have a "Who the frack is that" moment. But what I think they're building to is the obvious betrayal and the emotional regret by Tyler as he throws himself into the warp core or something like that.
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Originally Posted by photon
It's still entertaining, but it's frustrating because they're trying to do too much too fast I think, there's so little time for setup to give us a reason to care about these people. Though movies do it, so I guess it's just the writing. In an age where some shows have outstanding writing, it's just disappointing that it could have been so much more.
I think you've nailed it on the head for me, its gotten a lot better but its still so un-even and they really haven't given us a character that we really feel attached to and sympathetic to and care about. When Burnham was talking about the war ending and her going back to jail. I was like . . . well yeah, you still betrayed your Captain and got her killed so duh. She needs to have that great scene of redemption, but I figure they're going to try to do that by over throwing Lorca who's an outright sociopath, or killing Tyler.
I think the show is really uneven because it feels like as a bridge between Enterprise and TOS that humanity has taken a step back in terms of how the Federation operates. At first I attributed it to maybe this series taking place in the mirror universe. Or even the Federation at this point is heavily militarized and not the exploration armada that it is in Trek. But they've made these flawed characters and that's fine except they they're over emphasizing the flaws to the point they you can't really like them or what to get to know more about them.
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We don't really believe the Admiral is dead, do we?
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Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
I think she is, and Lorca is going to have to deal with his treachery
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Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed
I didn’t get the impression she’s dead.
She's probably not died. The title of the episode "Lethe" is a dead giveaway that she lives. There is a character called Lethe that is in a mental facility in the Original Series.
I outright think that she needs to be dead to really show that Lorca is what he is.
If she shows up back alive and eventually gets rescued the only thing that's going to happen is pretty much the removal of the Captain from Command. Especially after she hears that he basically said "Meh" when the talk of a rescue mission came up.
But if she's dead, that's on him, and that's interesting in terms of the fallout.
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Didn't the big bad Klingon accuse the other Klingon of "letting her get away"? There's no way the admiral is dead. Having her come back and making life difficult for Lorca has way too much cliffhanger potential to just abandon that storyline.
Incidentally, I wonder if the writers are allowing the story to fragment too much. There are already a large number of storylines:
- Discovery spore drive tech
- Stamets' slow descent into insanity by powering it (Personal theory: he ends up becoming something akin to TNG's Traveller)
- Michael's long-term future. (in classic Trek fashion, the entire 'she's a mutineer' thing was dropped rather quickly)
- Michael and Ash's relationship
- Lorca becoming unhinged
- The Klingon war itself
- Klingon reunification efforts
- Albino Klingon's... whatever the hell he's doing
- The Admiral's kidnapping
- Sarek lurking in the background
- Tilly and Saru are little more than foils at the moment, which is actually a good place for their characters to be. But there will inevitably be a storyline for each as well.
The battle in the opening of episode 8 was very well done.
Lorca is a captain unlike any other portrayed to date. You can't even compare him to the previous captains. He lives by the sword and will die by it, it seems.
He's machiavellian, and I don't mean that in the way most definitions suggest, which is that the prince will connive for his own advancement. Rather, he views Starfleet like Machiavelli viewed the state. He is ruthless and his virtues are bravery, courage, strength, vigour and prowess. Ends justify means. But all for Starfleet (the state).
Scary as hell, really. But engaging entertainment.
It seems his character is being set up for a death on behalf of Starfleet. Almost an atonement of his sins for what he thinks is the greater good, right or wrong. His philosophy is more classic Klingon than classic Starfleet.
Picard was a doo-gooder. Janeway too. Kirk was erratic but virtuous, Sisko is a little like Lorca but Lorca takes it to a new level.
Its shaping up to be quite a show.
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The battle in the opening of episode 8 was very well done.
Lorca is a captain unlike any other portrayed to date. You can't even compare him to the previous captains. He lives by the sword and will die by it, it seems.
He's machiavellian, and I don't mean that in the way most definitions suggest, which is that the prince will connive for his own advancement. Rather, he views Starfleet like Machiavelli viewed the state. He is ruthless and his virtues are bravery, courage, strength, vigour and prowess. Ends justify means. But all for Starfleet (the state).
Scary as hell, really. But engaging entertainment.
It seems his character is being set up for a death on behalf of Starfleet. Almost an atonement of his sins for what he thinks is the greater good, right or wrong. His philosophy is more classic Klingon than classic Starfleet.
Picard was a doo-gooder. Janeway too. Kirk was erratic but virtuous, Sisko is a little like Lorca but Lorca takes it to a new level.
Its shaping up to be quite a show.
I actually like the character of Lorca, out of all of the Captains with the exception of Sisco he's the most .. . . . human
you look at the previous Captain that we've seen in Archer, and when he got out to the expanse he became fairly ruthless, they stole parts from friendly aliens and left them stranded for example. But he never crossed the line within Star Fleet that Lorca has.
Lets look at what he's done
Cruelty to alien life forms.
Allowing human experimentation.
Basically allowing a foe to fall into enemy hands when she threatened his command
Left a man behind to rot in a Klingon Prison
Made what i think was a nonsensical decision to let Mud go with the secrets of Discovery
Basically he's ruthless and mission oriented, however his mission is not to serve the ideals and benefits of the Federation in Star Fleet, he's on his own mission and that's what makes him dangerous and maybe unbalanced.
He's basically put himself above the mission and his ship and the safety of his crew. When they lost the battle in the last episode he was quick to blame his crew. It seemed like he believed that his tactic were perfect and that his crew failed him.
He's a bad leader and in a lot of way the kind of Captain that you don't want running a ship in the line because he's one mental breakdown from ramming speed.
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My guess is that at the end of the series he's not going to sacrifice his crew and ship to "save" them from the Klingons, he's going to sacrifice his ship and himself to save his crew from the Klingons and that will be his redemption scene.
I also figure that this path has to lead to Burman being tempted to mutiny against him, and then the series ends with her getting command of a ship not named Enterprise.
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Lorca is a captain unlike any other portrayed to date. You can't even compare him to the previous captains. He lives by the sword and will die by it, it seems.
Yeah and that's one of the things that drew me in.
It's weird how I simultaneously feel that we haven't had enough time with Lorca or others to really explore them and that there's not enough characters to give the show depth.
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I'm going to continue my off topic and sporadic review of DS9 if you guys don't mind.
Like any ST series it is littered with poor special effects, cheesy dialogue, predictable stories with hamfisted moral messages etc. but I still enjoy it. I enjoy it quite a bit more than I thought I would.
However the writers just pissed me off big time and if this was an ongoing show i might stop watching altogether.
So they spend all this time establishing that the characters are and have acted in morally ambious ways. Kira, Odo, Gul Ducat, Sisko, Garak, Quark etc. (apologies for spelling).
Then they execute a wonderful turn of character when the normally ####ty but entertaining Gul Ducat shows a softer side, first with his daughter, and also with Kira, the flashback episode where we see Dax as one of Ducat's Bajoran lovers etc.
He becomes a wonderfully sympathetic character despite being a POS during the occupation and still seeing Bajoran's as a slave class of people and yet he's attracted to them. Fascinating character all around. Somewhat Jaime Lannister like in that I hated him and now I like him and also feel sorry for him.
Then those bunch of ahole POS writers (20 years ago) go ahead and have him flip sides out of the blue? WTF? And after all his love BS with his daughter, he just leaves her to randomly die and be murdered by this stupid plot with fake Dr Brashear? (she didn't die because they stopped fake julien but it's the thought that counts) Are you serious right now?
Quite possibly one of the worst set up and biggest betrayals of character development I've ever seen. And they spent ####ing years to set that #### up. Then they throw it all away for a cheap twist. This show has on numerous occasions cheated the viewer with that type of misdirection and that's ok.
ST has a history of using the "it's all a dream" or "it's all in your mind" or "it's some weird lifeform" etc excuse when crazy #### happens. But this was too far. They fake us out 3 times in the same episode (fake Dr, traitor Ducat, fake invasion). I'm willing to bet in hindsight they regret selling out all the integrity of their series for a cheap shock.
If this show was ongoing week to week and not on netflix I would say eff it and never watch it again. Only because I already know it is good in the next two season am I even considering continuing to watch.
Listen to podcast “Reopening the Wormhole” episode “Waltz” (episode 89) for an in depth discussion of the partial redemption of Ducat’s character, before the writers realized he’s basically Hitler, and Kira is an Auchwitz survivor. I used to feel like you, but in the full context, he cannot be redeemed for what he’s done.
A testament to how well he was played either way though!
Also - after 8 episodes of each, The Orville seems way more Trek to me than STD. It’s fun and has way more morality and complexity to its issues. And I guess I’m old, but Discovery has tossed too much canon for my liking.
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I've always been more onside with the concept that Mao and Stalin were better comparisons to Dukat then Hitler.
Dukat believed he was doing good for the occupied people, that he was several degrees less brutal and more gentle then his government wanted him to be, he had a sympathetic hero complex, and because he was influential and powerful nobody said to him. "Dude your still starving and killing and allowing the rape of millions, so yeah your evil".
Stalin believed that his 5 year plans were ultimately good for his people and while he killed countless hundreds of thousands executing them, he firmly believed that things could be worse.
When Mao was purging intellectuals and teachers, he did it with the belief that he was doing gods work in reforming his society and that things could be worse.
Dukat simply believed that the evil that he was doing could have been far worse, and that as a side benefit he was advancing a primitive religious society and that they were better off, and if they would stop fighting and forcing him to kill more and more that he would be there Sheppard.
Like Stalin and like Mao and like Hitler he was a malignant narcissist, he didn't have Stalin's crippling paranoia though, he believed that he was untouchable because he held back from doing worse and the people would eventually recognize that.
What shattered his illusion was being beaten by Sisco and having his daughter die, and then Sisco basically confronting him with the truth, that he benefited nobody but himself, and that in doing that all his acts were essentially evil. Dukat kept saying "I'm not an evil man, I did what I had to do in moderation instead of full blown". But when Sisco broke through that facade, at his heart of hearts he knew, and his natural reaction was to exaggerate his hidden nature. The old "You want to be bad, then I can be bad". Then he grabbed his crotch, shattered the window of Sisco's shuttle while yelling "Hoooo" then moon walked right into evil to the point where he was willing to sacrifice his being and his soul to destroy the Bajorans
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