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Old 04-04-2016, 12:36 PM   #101
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Equivocating is not an argument.
It certainly is if you are suggesting they're worse than others.
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:58 PM   #102
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Even if they are the same as many of their competitors, that is still as good a reason not to believe the hype. We haven't seen a lot of innovation out of Motor City in a long time.
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Old 04-04-2016, 01:13 PM   #103
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It's not like it's vapourware. They have proven they can build electric cars. I'm not saying I don't think it is ridiculous to put $1000 on a car you may not want in 3 years, I think it's silly. But I also think it's silly people buy new phones for $1000 every 2 years, so what do I know.
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Old 04-04-2016, 02:02 PM   #104
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Even if they are the same as many of their competitors, that is still as good a reason not to believe the hype. We haven't seen a lot of innovation out of Motor City in a long time.
Except there's been a poop ton of innovation by this company. You're really trying hard here but you haven't given us your point yet
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Old 04-04-2016, 02:12 PM   #105
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Except there's been a poop ton of innovation by this company. You're really trying hard here but you haven't given us your point yet
You have to read carefully, SP. Something about scaling.
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Old 04-04-2016, 02:28 PM   #106
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Maybe you should explain your scepticism with more detail than "companies like that tend to sell themselves more on hype than on products that can actually scale in a sustainable fashion."

Right now you're coming across as uninformed and dismissive.

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Old 04-04-2016, 02:40 PM   #107
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You have to read carefully, SP. Something about scaling.
Seems to me you've mentioned renting, lack of innovation, and suckers. Type going a long way and to prove your point
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Old 04-04-2016, 02:42 PM   #108
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So, as of November 2015, Tesla lost almost $20,000 per car that they sold. According to this article below, it is an increase of $4,000 per car since the previous quarter! This is partially due to the poor economies of scale in the mass-production of electric cars. Musk wants you to believe that he is an upcoming competitor to the Big 3 - except while he sells around 50,000 cars a year, GM is selling 9 million. So yeah, Musk wants to increase the production capacity at his car and battery-making plants. Hence, the Model 3 hype campaign, which, really, at this stage is based on promise and hype to raise the necessary capital. It doesn't mean that he can actually make money at it, or that he will even come through with the orders. Tesla has always come short on production promises.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-te...0QE0DC20150810

How is Musk able to keep losing so much money on a technology that is so obviously inefficient, and still keep the lights on his factories? He sells emissions credits to the California government. Taxpayers indirectly subsidize every cent of that $20,000 loss.
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Old 04-04-2016, 03:05 PM   #109
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Is it me, or have the Apple fanbois found a new savior to fawn over? Except now we're talking about $50K shiny baubles, not CE trinkets....

Design is a matter of opinion but that Model 3 interior looks stylish but impractical. No dials or switchgear? Good luck making adjustments while driving, unless it's all voice activated. Distracted driving nightmare. Autonomous driving may be coming, but this until then it looks a lot like a stripper decontented car.

Cars are incredibly complicated machines - we're not talking about some disposable consumer electronics here. Tesla has still not got the reliability part right, per Consumer Reports. Look at Hyundai who's taken decades to get to where they are at now.
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Old 04-04-2016, 03:06 PM   #110
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If you are not in this thread to mindlessly gush over Tesla, then you are clearly uninformed, IHH.
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Old 04-04-2016, 03:09 PM   #111
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Can't he be a visionary rent-seeker? I'm convinced from his interviews and writings he's not in it for the money. He's doing whatever he can to subsidize and pay for these ventures because he's trying to achieve his multiple visions.

If my goal was to encourage society to view electric vehicles as viable and can adopted en masse to change the paradigm of the industry, I would do whatever it took (including leveraging government handouts) to do it.

If my goal was to jump start private space exploration, at a fraction of the cost of government launches, I would take every hand-out and exploit every loophole I could to keep funding it as well. Space-X was on the brink of folding multiple times. It's barely hanging on and yet every launch inspires people to believe it's possible.

The point of these ventures isn't so that they are beastly commercial successes out of the gate, but to serve that vision and to inspire and motivate progress away from traditional models. For a small start-up to make a dent in both of these areas, and to keep funding R&D into new technologies means you have to get your hands dirty sometimes.

He may be losing money on every car sold, but the traditional model puts the new technology and features in the Halo cars and thus, out of reach of the ordinary person. (see airbags and anti-lock brakes). Time and economies of scale slowly cause those features to trickle down to the mass-market models. He's turning this around and subsidizing his cars so people can afford these cars in order to build up the customer base and fund those economies of scale.

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Old 04-04-2016, 03:13 PM   #112
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Well, maybe. But if his ideas are so great, why can't he sell them to the market on their own merit. If things can't scale, and make money, well, then they aren't really all that much good.

As for being a decent futurist, Pirrong makes a compelling case that Musk has exercised his market power before to artificially increase the price of his stock to raise capital.

http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=7294
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Old 04-04-2016, 03:18 PM   #113
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Well, maybe. But if his ideas are so great, why can't he sell them to the market on their own merit. If things can't scale, and make money, well, then they aren't really all that much good.

As for being a decent futurist, Pirrong makes a compelling case that Musk has exercised his market power before to artificially increase the price of his stock to raise capital.

http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=7294
Because he's going for the most efficient way by leveraging every dollar he can, whether it's the government, tax incentives, private equity, etc. to get it off the ground and avoid the snail's pace of regular industry cycles.

Innovative technology never scales out of the gate. That's why tech always starts out high priced until the R&D, tooling, etc. is paid off and development and inefficiencies come in to trickle it down to the masses. He's just reversing this and subsidizing the tech so that the masses can afford it to build that hype, to build that base, and create the appetite for a completely new segment which will hopefully help fund those economies of scale down the line.
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Old 04-04-2016, 03:23 PM   #114
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Is it me, or have the Apple fanbois found a new savior to fawn over? Except now we're talking about $50K shiny baubles, not CE trinkets.....
I agree, but unfortunately there is android in this market yet. All we have is Blackberries, Nokia flip phones and bricks from the 80s.
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Old 04-04-2016, 04:19 PM   #115
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Tesla has still not got the reliability part right, per Consumer Reports. Look at Hyundai who's taken decades to get to where they are at now.
And yet it's ranked #1 (and #2) on CR's best car of 2015.

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...-best-car.aspx

Given the amount of new technology in these cars, I don't think an owner would expect them to be the most reliable cars on the road.

Further, many high end cars are plagued by reliability issues (Bentley comes to mind), the Tesla report made noise because it was otherwise the best ever reviewed car.
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Old 04-04-2016, 04:20 PM   #116
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Sorry, but why exactly does anyone care about peter12's opinion of Elon Musk?

Tesla has released the Roadster, the Model S, the Model X, and soon the Model 3. Thanks to Musk, they have released all the patents behind their technology so that whoever wants to use them can. Tesla has produced actual product and real value. Who gives a rat's ass what he thinks?
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Old 04-04-2016, 04:23 PM   #117
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Sorry, but why exactly does anyone care about peter12's opinion of Elon Musk?

Tesla has released the Roadster, the Model S, the Model X, and soon the Model 3. Thanks to Musk, they have released all the patents behind their technology so that whoever wants to use them can. Tesla has produced actual product and real value. Who gives a rat's ass what he thinks?
Real value that no one actually will pay for.
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Old 04-04-2016, 04:34 PM   #118
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Real value that no one actually will pay for.
Yeah, no one has ever bought a Tesla.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:41 PM   #119
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Is it me, or have the internet haters found a new target to whip up their jealousy, secret longings and vitriol over? Except now we're talking about stuff they literally cannot afford not just trinkets....
You say tomato . . .
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Old 04-04-2016, 06:05 PM   #120
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Would like to point out that the Tesla 3 has 276,000 reservations paid for in the first three days of availability. To give these numbers some relevance the top selling vehicle of 2014 was the Ford F-150 with 365,825 units sold. The top selling car was the Toyota Camry with 222,550 units sold. The Honda Accord sold 185,278 units. The Nissan Altima sold 176,453 units. The Hyundai Sonata sold 106,347 units. The BMW 3 & 4 series sold 56,657 units combined. These numbers for Tesla are remarkable and place it in uncharted territory for any car ever built.
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