Brad Treliving needs to go

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

It’s more than just the first round picks that are the problem. In the last three drafts no team has made fewer selections than the Flames have in the first two rounds of the draft. Treliving has leveraged the future to build the roster he has today/had for the last few seasons, and they haven’t won a playoff series since 2015. That’s just bad.

I agree and I am definitely a fence sitter when it comes to Treliving right now. I am okay giving him one last chance but wouldn’t be the least but upset if the decision to move on was made.

I have mentioned how I think the 2015 run killed any hope Treliving had to slowly build this thing up. It was one of the reasons I thought the Hamilton trade was the perfect balance at the time.

I agree it went downhill when the same package was offered for Hamonic and good picks were used on Lazar and Elliott

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jore

Yeah and if the next GM builds a bubble-at-best team seven years after rebuilding that GM should be fired too.



It all worked out? How? The Flames have next to nothing to show for this future mortgaging. We got a few decent pieces, ok, and we're also at the cap and in 20th place this season with no star prospects on the way.

No matter how you spin it and dissect it the fact remains that the Flames have picked less than almost every team and have all of one playoff round victory for it.

So where are you at with the next GM? How many years is he allowed to tank before you expect to be a contender? Personally I think there is a decent enough chance the next guy comes in and has less success than 4 playoff appearances, a division title, and a series victory.

You have 32 teams either trying to win or build a winner. If a fans expectations are to have a consistent team in the top 15% of the league after 5-7 years of building and remain in that spot for several years there is a guaranteed chance that several fanbases will be left pissed off.

I am a proponent of a retool either with or without Treliving. I think they need to rid themselves of the players they think are not part of the solution or future and see what they can do next year. If it is another failure then the rebuild is on and likely Sutter and Markstrom will be gone. I want to see what happens next year with a retooled team, and full regular season with fans and playing all 31 opponents.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So where are you at with the next GM? How many years is he allowed to tank before you expect to be a contender? Personally I think there is a decent enough chance the next guy comes in and has less success than 4 playoff appearances, a division title, and a series victory.

You have 32 teams either trying to win or build a winner. If a fans expectations are to have a consistent team in the top 15% of the league after 5-7 years of building and remain in that spot for several years there is a guaranteed chance that several fanbases will be left pissed off.

I am a proponent of a retool either with or without Treliving. I think they need to rid themselves of the players they think are not part of the solution or future and see what they can do next year. If it is another failure then the rebuild is on and likely Sutter and Markstrom will be gone. I want to see what happens next year with a retooled team, and full regular season with fans and playing all 31 opponents.

I'd be disappointed in that over seven years. Although it depends on the approach.

When Treliving started, the tear down had begun and had been ongoing for two years. If a new GM was given the mandate to tear down and rebuild, then yeah couldn't expect much success for at least three years. So if you did embrace that approach (of which likelihood is next to zero), I'd certainly expect by the end of year 7 to be in a better place and on an upward trajectory.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I'd be disappointed in that over seven years. Although it depends on the approach.

When Treliving started, the tear down had begun and had been ongoing for two years. If a new GM was given the mandate to tear down and rebuild, then yeah couldn't expect much success for at least three years. So if you did embrace that approach (of which likelihood is next to zero), I'd certainly expect by the end of year 7 to be in a better place and on an upward trajectory.

The Treliving took over did not have near the talent that a current GM would walk in with. Feaster gets credit for clearing the cap sheet but all he did was get garbage returns for Iggy and Bouw and Kipper retired that was $20M right there.

This current Flames team could have the cap cleared out quickly as easily as well. Gio and Johnny are entering the last year of their deals in addition to Tkachuk and the following year Monahan and Lucic are off the books.

So it shouldn’t take 3 years to tear down a team that is mostly full of players in their prime age group. Also assets like Tkachuk, Monahan, Gaudreau, Lindholm etc should get more for return than the 30+ players the Flames sold off the last team.

I ultimately question the true patience of this fanbase and think there are a few out there with expectations that are way out of whack with reality. I think the same people saying Treliving is a horrible GM and failing will not put up with 4-5 years in the tank. I could be wrong but I just doubt it.

Ottawa has been pure trash for 4 years now. How much longer are they allowed to suck before those fans demand change?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The Treliving took over did not have near the talent that a current GM would walk in with. Feaster gets credit for clearing the cap sheet but all he did was get garbage returns for Iggy and Bouw and Kipper retired that was $20M right there.

This current Flames team could have the cap cleared out quickly as easily as well. Gio and Johnny are entering the last year of their deals in addition to Tkachuk and the following year Monahan and Lucic are off the books.

So it shouldn’t take 3 years to tear down a team that is mostly full of players in their prime age group. Also assets like Tkachuk, Monahan, Gaudreau, Lindholm etc should get more for return than the 30+ players the Flames sold off the last team.

I ultimately question the true patience of this fanbase and think there are a few out there with expectations that are way out of whack with reality. I think the same people saying Treliving is a horrible GM and failing will not put up with 4-5 years in the tank. I could be wrong but I just doubt it.

Ottawa has been pure trash for 4 years now. How much longer are they allowed to suck before those fans demand change?

A valid point. It took Pittsburgh 4 years of being terrible before they even made the POs. 3 before Crosby and one after (though perhaps the first of the bad years wasn’t an actual tank). They drafted 5, 1, 2, 1 and 2 OA in succession. Then they were eliminated in round one, with Crosby and Malkin (and after that the rest is history).

ETA: You are also likely asking owners to lose money for 4 years if they get no PO revenue (which is their real profit centre).

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The Treliving took over did not have near the talent that a current GM would walk in with. Feaster gets credit for clearing the cap sheet but all he did was get garbage returns for Iggy and Bouw and Kipper retired that was $20M right there.

This current Flames team could have the cap cleared out quickly as easily as well. Gio and Johnny are entering the last year of their deals in addition to Tkachuk and the following year Monahan and Lucic are off the books.

So it shouldn’t take 3 years to tear down a team that is mostly full of players in their prime age group. Also assets like Tkachuk, Monahan, Gaudreau, Lindholm etc should get more for return than the 30+ players the Flames sold off the last team.

I ultimately question the true patience of this fanbase and think there are a few out there with expectations that are way out of whack with reality. I think the same people saying Treliving is a horrible GM and failing will not put up with 4-5 years in the tank. I could be wrong but I just doubt it.

Ottawa has been pure trash for 4 years now. How much longer are they allowed to suck before those fans demand change?

Well to be fair you shouldn't have to tear the team apart every seven years. I think the fan base is patient but after seven years you'd like to have more to show for it. Not so much in terms of results, but that's certainly part of it, but in terms of future outlook.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well to be fair you shouldn't have to tear the team apart every seven years. I think the fan base is patient but after seven years you'd like to have more to show for it. Not so much in terms of results, but that's certainly part of it, but in terms of future outlook.

It's not just about how much they have to show for 7 years. It's the current state of the organization at the 7 year mark that's even more concerning with no blue chip prospects, decline of the roster, and two best forwards in Gaudreau and Tkachuk getting closer to free agency. They are going to miss the playoffs in the weakest division in the NHL where teams like the Habs and Jets are limping in the playoffs literally begging for any team to take their spot. The last time things were this bleak for the organization was the 2012/13 season when they traded Iginla, Bouwmeester and Kipper retired.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well to be fair you shouldn't have to tear the team apart every seven years. I think the fan base is patient but after seven years you'd like to have more to show for it. Not so much in terms of results, but that's certainly part of it, but in terms of future outlook.

The team is at a crossroads for sure when you look at future outlook.

In my mind if the goal is to tank then these are the 3 absolute must move assets.
1. Sutter fired
2. Markstrom traded
3. Lindholm traded.

You can’t have a coach that can drag a bad team from bottom 3 to bottom 8 and lose that extremely high pick. You can’t have a goalie that can steal games taking away your tank position and who would be too old to help when the team is ready to compete and you absolutely must sell high on your best contract and a player that makes no sense keeping around as a bargain deal when the plan is to suck for the rest of it.

I don’t think any one of those 3 things will happen this summer so then I look at the other alternative. The fate of Gaudreau needs to be addressed and considering that the team has taken a step back 2 years in a row since his peak season and so has Johnny it makes sense to part ways for both. Getting the best return in a trade is key and the focus should be on a player or players/prospects/picks that will help in the future but also pieces that could help now. Giordano is the face of this team post Iginla and his leadership has been questioned by fans but he still appears to be a favorite of the coach, GM and owners. He won’t be traded this summer but he could be chosen in expansion. I am not opposed to the organization paying assets to have Seattle take Lucic (depending on the cost) but I am absolutely opposed to have them send assets to protect Gio.

I see this offseason as a chance to move on from a couple of key parts of this team to help start a new era of Flames hockey. I think they have the ability to do that and still be a much better team than they were this year. A full year of Sutter and a consistent year from Markstrom and I think this team is top 3 in the Pacific

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The one thing Gaudreau is doing is that he is putting the puck in the net, albeit more on the PP vs even strength.

I'd say of the three of them, Gaudreau's sniping is the only thing that is not a huge disappointment.

That's fair. For me, regular season Gaudreau is irrelevant at this point, I only care if he shows up when it really, really matters.
12pts in the last 10 game pt streak is nice, but 4pts in the previous 11 (1 EVG) where the Flames went 2-9 simply isn't good enough (17:16 TOI)

MT had 6 pts in those games (3EVG 1EVA) 15:58 TOI.

Monahan only had 3 pts (all EVA) in 17:55.

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The team is at a crossroads for sure when you look at future outlook.

From a purely practical/contract standpoint, IMO last year and next year were the real 'crossroads' for this group...this year is the worst time to be making a pivot/re-tool.

Last year (~TDL-off-season):

2D - Brodie (30) 4.65
4/5D - Hamonic (30) 3.875
1a/b - Talbot (33) 2.75
10F - Frolik (32) 4.3

- Only Mangi needing an RFA raise.

- Pretty decent freedom to trade Johnny (2 to UFA), Gio (2 to UFA), or Sean (3 to UFA) - of course COVID made it tougher, but there was no reason to believe the next off-season would be any better (though SEA is an interesting wrinkle).

we turned that into:

#1G - Markstrom (31)
2D - Tanev (31)
(Andersson and Valimaki taking bigger roles)

It was an opportunity to get younger at key positions, but we did the opposite.


Compared to this year:

2G - Rittich
10F - Ryan
10F - Bennett

- Dubé and Valimaki need RFAs (some silver lining I suppose that they haven't earned big ones...)

- Rental value for Johnny or Gio and SM's 10 team NTC has kicked in.


Obviously next TDL/off-season is a major pinch point for JG, Gio, MT, and Mangiapane where some big changes are inevitable.

I find it a lot harder to see a path to sustainable improvement right now than I did last year (which admittedly required a bit of a gamble and likely a short-term baby-step backwards)...the specific moves BT made worked pretty well, but the overall portfolio still crashed.

[powderjunkie]

To add to that novel, the type of move I was suggesting last year was along the lines of:

Out:
Johnny
Hani (or another young D)

In:
~22 yo F
~27 yo RHD
perhaps a mid 20s G, too.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The team is at a crossroads for sure when you look at future outlook.

In my mind if the goal is to tank then these are the 3 absolute must move assets.
1. Sutter fired
2. Markstrom traded
3. Lindholm traded.

You can’t have a coach that can drag a bad team from bottom 3 to bottom 8 and lose that extremely high pick. You can’t have a goalie that can steal games taking away your tank position and who would be too old to help when the team is ready to compete and you absolutely must sell high on your best contract and a player that makes no sense keeping around as a bargain deal when the plan is to suck for the rest of it.

I don’t think any one of those 3 things will happen this summer so then I look at the other alternative. The fate of Gaudreau needs to be addressed and considering that the team has taken a step back 2 years in a row since his peak season and so has Johnny it makes sense to part ways for both. Getting the best return in a trade is key and the focus should be on a player or players/prospects/picks that will help in the future but also pieces that could help now. Giordano is the face of this team post Iginla and his leadership has been questioned by fans but he still appears to be a favorite of the coach, GM and owners. He won’t be traded this summer but he could be chosen in expansion. I am not opposed to the organization paying assets to have Seattle take Lucic (depending on the cost) but I am absolutely opposed to have them send assets to protect Gio.

I see this offseason as a chance to move on from a couple of key parts of this team to help start a new era of Flames hockey. I think they have the ability to do that and still be a much better team than they were this year. A full year of Sutter and a consistent year from Markstrom and I think this team is top 3 in the Pacific

I agree with most of this. However, I do still think that without an elite center, the Flames are prone to return back to mediocrity.

The Flames are a team that typically rely on a number of "ifs" in order for things to go well. But these results change on a year-to-year basis.

If the Flames do end up doing well next year, I hope they don't trade away the future.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Treliving inherited a roster which was not great but had good work ethic, a coach that got it to the playoffs

He turfed the coach, I’d say he improved the roster, and then continually sewered all of the good contract years with crap coaches

So where are we at? He just finally hires an NHL coach, so it is time to blow up the roster? Sounds about right.

[Jason14h]

That's fair. For me, regular season Gaudreau is irrelevant at this point, I only care if he shows up when it really, really matters.
12pts in the last 10 game pt streak is nice, but 4pts in the previous 11 (1 EVG) where the Flames went 2-9 simply isn't good enough (17:16 TOI)

Doesn't this basically show when JG doesnt product points the Flames loose?

And this is the crux of the issue. We depend on JG to best the best player on the ice when he should be the 2nd or 3rd best (Even his pay dictates this)

I honestly dont know how this team will generate a scoring chance without JG on the team.

No need to try to tank - If you can't score in today's NHL and have a lethal PP you will be terrible - tanking or not

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Treliving inherited a roster which was not great but had good work ethic, a coach that got it to the playoffs

He turfed the coach, I’d say he improved the roster, and then continually sewered all of the good contract years with crap coaches

So where are we at? He just finally hires an NHL coach, so it is time to blow up the roster? Sounds about right.

Pretty much. Interesting comments from Francis on Monday where he states that Sutter is already grating to some players and that is concerning. They need to move these guys out. This teams only chance is a full buy in to what Sutter wants. Basically becoming the Islanders west and play the coaches system 100% of the time

[keenan87]

I want Gorton!

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by keenan87

I want Gorton!

Make him bring their goalie coach along too.

[Vinny01]

Davidson as President and Lombardi as GM would be a power move by the organization especially with having Sutter as coach.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Like nik- said in the other thread, great opportunity for the Flames to blow up the front office, we shall see how they flub it

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Doesn't this basically show when JG doesnt product points the Flames loose?

And this is the crux of the issue. We depend on JG to best the best player on the ice when he should be the 2nd or 3rd best (Even his pay dictates this)

I honestly dont know how this team will generate a scoring chance without JG on the team.

No need to try to tank - If you can't score in today's NHL and have a lethal PP you will be terrible - tanking or not

Yes.

As for scoring chances, who knows? How was NYI going to score without Tavares? CBJ w/o Panarin (okay, not as well lately, but they were still competitive last year)? DAL could barely score with Seguin last year, and they're slightly better this year.

Imagine if we even got assets back?

Someone else will play those ~18 minutes. Maybe the rest of the team will stop riding passenger waiting for Johnny to do something.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Pretty much. Interesting comments from Francis on Monday where he states that Sutter is already grating to some players and that is concerning. They need to move these guys out. This teams only chance is a full buy in to what Sutter wants. Basically becoming the Islanders west and play the coaches system 100% of the time

That's concerning. How many of these guys are truly invested in reaching the pinnacle of their profession?