[News] Sean Monahan done for the season. Needs hip surgery. Will be ready for training camp - Page 8 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Jaybo · 05-13-2021, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Why is that Sean Monahan's job? Do other top centers fight to protect themselves?

Isn't that the whole reason this team employs Lucic, Rinaldo,etc?

It's very rare for a guy who's playing as a top line center to fight. Let's look back to 13-14 and look at the top 20 centers in league scoring over that time (Monahan is 19th).

Crosby - 2
McDavid - 0
Tavares - 0
Giroux - 1
Backstrom - 0
Mackinnon - 6
Malkin - 4
Kopitar - 0
Seguin - 1
Pavelski - 3
Scheifele - 1
Draisaitl - 0
O'Reilly - 0
Bergeron - 2
Stamkos - 4
Barkov - 0
Getzlaf - 16
Toews - 4
Monahan - 1
Johansen - 9

Damn, look at all those soft centers that don't fight. Wouldn't want any of those guys on my team.

It's ridiculous to think that the guy who is your top 6 goal scoring center, who has a history of hand/wrist injuries now, should be fighting to protect himself.

Fighting is one metric for "toughness" but would be interesting to see penalty minutes for the people on that list during the same timeframe and maybe even limited to a range of specific penalties.

Still not a perfect metric for "toughness" but things like roughing, cross-checking, slashing, etc. would at least show how engaged they are in physical play.

Macman · 05-13-2021, 05:58 PM

I also won't call Monahan soft, I actually think he's a tough player that takes a lot of knocks out there. You don't think his wrist issues aren't from him being slashed all the time? He gets hacked a lot that doesn't get called.
Hopefully his surgery will be successful and he'll be back stronger.

djsFlames · 05-13-2021, 06:09 PM

Glad he will be ready for Buffalo training camp.

djsFlames · 05-13-2021, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I wonder if Sutter looks at Monahan as a project and can him to being a solid 2 way forward that can score 20-25 goals.

Dare to dream. I like Mony and don't want to see him go.

Um..... I mean, he's scored over 30 three times so..

GioforPM · 05-13-2021, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Um..... I mean, he's scored over 30 three times so..

I think he’s saying a two way guy at 20-25 goals might be more valuable than a one dimensional 30 goal scorer.

Thing is, I think Monahan, with linemates that are better defensively, is already just fine in his own end. But until Lindholm came along, that wasn’t the case, and it wasn’t the case with any RW this year either.

Strange Brew · 05-13-2021, 10:45 PM

With some effort, I have no doubt Monahan could get to being average defensively. Unfortunately if that means his goal scoring disappears, his utility really craters.

Calgary needs Monahan to be a 30 goal scorer who can pay attention to the details in his own zone. And a guy that can physically hold up over a full season and playoffs.

That probably doesn't get him to elite but it gets him to very, very good and a guy that could play on any contender.

GreenLantern2814 · 05-14-2021, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybo

Fighting is one metric for "toughness" but would be interesting to see penalty minutes for the people on that list during the same timeframe and maybe even limited to a range of specific penalties.

Still not a perfect metric for "toughness" but things like roughing, cross-checking, slashing, etc. would at least show how engaged they are in physical play.

Spoiler!

Gretzky: 0.39 PIM/g

What are we even arguing about. Water is wet, the sun rises in the east and Sean Monahan is a passive hockey player.

GioforPM · 05-14-2021, 11:43 AM

^ Deployment has a bit to do with this. Bergeron is not only the top line C, he's the shutdown C, so he's matched against guys who draw penalties. This is the case for a guy like Backlund obviously, and even Crosby. And some of these guys fight, which shoots the PM/g way up, since it's 1.5 times a normal penalty. Some are just dirty, like Kesler, and Getzlaf and Thornton to an extent.

I'm not sure of the conclusions here though. Is Monahan less passive than Barkov or Matthews, under this analysis? Lemieux was a rougher player than Jarome?

No one is arguing Monahan is some hitting machine. People are saying he stands in in the middle of the traffic and takes abuse in order to try and score.

timun · 05-14-2021, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Theo: 1084 GP 1840 PIM - 1.7 PIM/g (there’s a lesson for Johnny somewhere in here)

Spoiler!

Psytic · 05-14-2021, 11:48 AM

I feel like he can learn defense. Backlund wasn't that great for many years at 2 way play either. The issue is foot speed and the fact he is not effective offensively unless hes in the goalies grill which causes him to be injured every season. I dont know that those two issues can be fixed. Add age into the mix and I think he is still trending down. I like him I just dont know that he will have a long career at this rate.

Calgary4LIfe · 05-14-2021, 11:52 AM

I remember seeing a stat a while ago that raised my eyebrows - Bergeron was nowhere close in playing tough minutes like Backlund was. That was a few seasons ago. I remember specifically that Bergeron had way more offensive zone starts, for instance.

I thought Monahan was decent defensively this year. That's not explaining his lower offensive stats. When he did get into position, he did things that we don't often see - miss the net, flub the shot, etc. I was positive that it was his wrists. Might have been a confidence thing. Who knows.

I do think that Monahan will take a hit offensively if he is tasked with being more focused on defence, but I also think he will adjust and improve. It is a learning curve. Maybe he won't hit 30 goals in a season, but maybe he still will.

That's why I always argue to the value of Backlund on this team. His numbers are right up there with 2nd line production, but nothing special. Put some context into his numbers, and he becomes a darling. Rationalize that by tasking him with the hardest minutes on the team, allowing for the lines above him to be deployed in easier circumstances, you start to love him.

I do, however, think that if Sutter can make both Monahan and Lindholm better defensive centres, and having a guy like Backlund still being utilized as the premier shut-down guy, this team can be incredibly difficult to play against.

Hopefully Monahan at least took a step forward in that regard this season. I think he did. We will see next season if he really has.

GioforPM · 05-14-2021, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psytic

I feel like he can learn defense. Backlund wasn't that great for many years at 2 way play either. The issue is foot speed and the fact he is not effective offensively unless hes in the goalies grill which causes him to be injured every season. I dont know that those two issues can be fixed. Add age into the mix and I think he is still trending down. I like him I just dont know that he will have a long career at this rate.

Foot speed is a bit of an issue on defence, too though. Guys like Bergeron and Backlund aren't phsyical but they are mobile. What it might do is limit him even more offensively, since he'll feel like he can't commit too far into the offensive zone on 50-50 plays because he is slower getting back, and he will always end up being the last forward into the other zone. I think that was a bit of an issue this year.

Monahan's defensive IQ and position once in the zone is usually pretty good, and he has a decent stick and the ability to gather pucks and clear the zone.

Lindholm's defensive play doesn't detract much from his offence because he isn't slow. Monahan is a bit different.

GreenLantern2814 · 05-14-2021, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timun

Spoiler!

Fair play.

Flamesfan05 · 05-14-2021, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Why is that Sean Monahan's job? Do other top centers fight to protect themselves?

Isn't that the whole reason this team employs Lucic, Rinaldo,etc?

It's very rare for a guy who's playing as a top line center to fight. Let's look back to 13-14 and look at the top 20 centers in league scoring over that time (Monahan is 19th).

Crosby - 2
McDavid - 0
Tavares - 0
Giroux - 1
Backstrom - 0
Mackinnon - 6
Malkin - 4
Kopitar - 0
Seguin - 1
Pavelski - 3
Scheifele - 1
Draisaitl - 0
O'Reilly - 0
Bergeron - 2
Stamkos - 4
Barkov - 0
Getzlaf - 16
Toews - 4
Monahan - 1
Johansen - 9

Damn, look at all those soft centers that don't fight. Wouldn't want any of those guys on my team.

It's ridiculous to think that the guy who is your top 6 goal scoring center, who has a history of hand/wrist injuries now, should be fighting to protect himself.

You don’t have to fight to be tough

Tough means you are hard to play against
You play physical and you show up when it counts

I have a hard time saying Monahan does any of that in the last 3 yrs

GreenLantern2814 · 05-14-2021, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioforPM

^ Deployment has a bit to do with this. Bergeron is not only the top line C, he's the shutdown C, so he's matched against guys who draw penalties. This is the case for a guy like Backlund obviously, and even Crosby. And some of these guys fight, which shoots the PM/g way up, since it's 1.5 times a normal penalty. Some are just dirty, like Kesler, and Getzlaf and Thornton to an extent.

I'm not sure of the conclusions here though. Is Monahan less passive than Barkov or Matthews, under this analysis? Lemieux was a rougher player than Jarome?

No one is arguing Monahan is some hitting machine. People are saying he stands in in the middle of the traffic and takes abuse in order to try and score.

Do the PIMs mean anything in particular? No.

They’re another example of Monahan not doing the things every other top player at his position does, with very rare exceptions.

If you’re in the thick of the game, in the #1C role, you take penalties. With very rare exceptions - Kopitar is at 0.27 PIM/game and he’s got over 1100.

Even when you’re as disciplined and skate as well as Bergeron or Pavelski. #### happens in the course of a game.

Any player getting frontline centre minutes better be producing at an elite level to justify why he’s above mucking it up with his teammates.

In the case of Matthews, the guy has either scored 40 or been on pace for 40 five years in a row. It’s understandable. But even Matthews is probably going to have to toughen up for Toronto to get where they want to go. He may need to score a few less goals and take a few more licks to secure the victories. Everyone goes through that.

Barkov is dominating in all other areas of the game and leading the Panthers to the playoffs.

Is Monahan a repaired hip away from dominating the game?

GioforPM · 05-14-2021, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Do the PIMs mean anything in particular? No.

They’re another example of Monahan not doing the things every other top player at his position does, with very rare exceptions.

If you’re in the thick of the game, in the #1C role, you take penalties. With very rare exceptions - Kopitar is at 0.27 PIM/game and he’s got over 1100.

Even when you’re as disciplined and skate as well as Bergeron or Pavelski. #### happens in the course of a game.

Any player getting frontline centre minutes better be producing at an elite level to justify why he’s above mucking it up with his teammates.

In the case of Matthews, the guy has either scored 40 or been on pace for 40 five years in a row. It’s understandable. But even Matthews is probably going to have to toughen up for Toronto to get where they want to go. He may need to score a few less goals and take a few more licks to secure the victories. Everyone goes through that.

Barkov is dominating in all other areas of the game and leading the Panthers to the playoffs.

Is Monahan a repaired hip away from dominating the game?

You've moved the goalposts from "is Monahan soft" to "is Monahan a top 1C". All anyone has really been saying is that Monahan has gone to tough areas, taken abuse, and been called soft for doing so because he doesn't fight and take a bunch of penalties.

Is he highly effective is a completely different discussion.

GreenLantern2814 · 05-14-2021, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You've moved the goalposts from "is Monahan soft" to "is Monahan a top 1C". All anyone has really been saying is that Monahan has gone to tough areas, taken abuse, and been called soft for doing so because he doesn't fight and take a bunch of penalties.

Is he highly effective is a completely different discussion.

Monahan is highly tough by the standards of normal human beings.

He is soft by the standard of hockey players, and he is especially soft for his role.

If he was tough in hockey terms, he’d give as good as he got, and that would show up somewhere.

PIMs, fights, hits, somewhere. But it doesn’t.

GioforPM · 05-14-2021, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Monahan is highly tough by the standards of normal human beings.

He is soft by the standard of hockey players, and he is especially soft for his role.

If he was tough in hockey terms, he’d give as good as he got, and that would show up somewhere.

PIMs, fights, hits, somewhere. But it doesn’t.

Also not tough by virtue of a lack of pms - Mark Giordano, Chris Tanev, Nordstrom, Stone.

Also not tough by virtue of hits: wonder centre Elias Lindholm (6 more hits than Monahan in 3 more games) and everyone else on the Flames except Lucic, Tkachuk, Ritchie, Nordstrom and Dube.

Tough as in taking abused though - he's probably slashed as much as Gaudreau, only with less fan outrage, and takes a lot more checks and crosschecks in the slot.

DeluxeMoustache · 05-14-2021, 04:20 PM

The guy looked really good early in the season. Clearly there was an injury he was playing through, severe enough to require surgery. And here is a discussion on his toughness

Musing over how we decide which players get a pass for how they perform when playing with documented injuries

Fighting Banana Slug · 05-14-2021, 04:25 PM

His game, and his value to the team, is scoring goals. Full stop.
He was never thought of as an extremely high end skater, playmaker or defensive guru.
So, this year was pretty terrible. Not enough goals and I doubt anyone would argue that.
However, I don't think we need to write him off completely. It has been 2 really weird years and a number of tough injuries. I think he still has plenty of value as a goal scoring centre, so if you can extract value, great. I just wouldn't give him away, which is what some seem to be advocating.