[Rumour] Dreger: Whispers of the Flames trying to extend Hamonic

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I'm not sure I'd be willing to give him a NMC nor do I think the Flames would be.

Hanifin and Valimaki should be locks for protection spots. A NMC for Hamonic would mean that both Andersson and Kylington are unprotected (along with an old Giordano).

if they want to select 37 year old Giordano, I won't stop them.

edit: you give hamonic the NMC to keep his cap under 4. Need every penny in the next 2 years in order to compete. Deal with the fallout in years 5-7 when this team will be bottoming out anyway.

[neo45]

Or a nice wink wink deal with Hamonic so that he is UFA for the expansion draft and then signs the second half of his deal

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

To me this says they tested the market for both guys and decided Brodie has more trade value. More cap coming off and I wouldn’t be surprised if he netted a much better return. He gets a lot of flak on here but the reality is that he’s a top-3/4 defenseman who can play on your top pairing with the right partner. Those are valuable.

Not necessarily. They might just like Hamonic way better and think he's a better fit long term. Hamonic may have more trade value, but not enough more to justify trading him.

Brodie and Hamonic are completely different d-men. I doubt their trade value determines 100% who stays and who goes.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by neo45

Or a nice wink wink deal with Hamonic so that he is UFA for the expansion draft and then signs the second half of his deal

Which is, of course, not allowed.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by flamesforcup

6.5*6 is a good deal for both sides i feel.

If that's what it costs, no thanks.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Which is, of course, not allowed.

It’s completely unenforceable by the league to control how players sign their deals.

We re-signed Stone like 30 seconds after the expansion draft, didn’t we?

[The Cobra]

The difficult part is proving it. If the league found out (and could prove) that Calgary had a side deal to sign a player after the expansion draft, they would be heavily sanctioned.

Now, saying "wait until after the expansion draft, and we can likely sign another deal then", that's fine.

The difference is in the first case, it's meant to be an agreed upon deal, and while legally neither side is bound by it, the intention is that they couldn't do so morally In the second, it's clear either the team or the player could change its mind, legally and morally.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

if they want to select 37 year old Giordano, I won't stop them.

edit: you give hamonic the NMC to keep his cap under 4. Need every penny in the next 2 years in order to compete. Deal with the fallout in years 5-7 when this team will be bottoming out anyway.

It's not Giordano I'm concerned about. I'd rather overpay Hamonic a bit and get the option to keep the better of Hamonic/Andersson/Kylington.

Give Hamonic a NTC, that might be acceptable as Seattle isn't too far away.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

It's not Giordano I'm concerned about. I'd rather overpay Hamonic a bit and get the option to keep the better of Hamonic/Andersson/Kylington.

Give Hamonic a NTC, that might be acceptable as Seattle isn't too far away.

It's a tough balance, because this is it right now for this core group, and I don't think they have enough mustard to go the distance.

My preference would probably be to start tearing things down now and building around valimaki/hanifin to start to take a run 4 years from now, but I don't think the Flames are willing to do that at all.

I look at hamonic like a bird in the hand. You've got a rare commodity in him; a guy willing to take less money for the right situation, and calgary finds themselves in the rare position to be the top pick for that situation.

Maybe the NTC is enough to get it done in which case yes absolutely, but if I am treliving and the NMC keeps hamonic's cap hit under 4 I probably do that deal knowing it's unlikely i'll be around to deal with the fallout of the contract after it hits the midpoint of the deal anyway.

Then you find an alternate scenario to deal with Andersson/Kylington.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's a tough balance, because this is it right now for this core group, and I don't think they have enough mustard to go the distance.

My preference would probably be to start tearing things down now and building around valimaki/hanifin to start to take a run 4 years from now, but I don't think the Flames are willing to do that at all.

I look at hamonic like a bird in the hand. You've got a rare commodity in him; a guy willing to take less money for the right situation, and calgary finds themselves in the rare position to be the top pick for that situation.

Maybe the NTC is enough to get it done in which case yes absolutely, but if I am treliving and the NMC keeps hamonic's cap hit under 4 I probably do that deal knowing it's unlikely i'll be around to deal with the fallout of the contract after it hits the midpoint of the deal anyway.

Then you find an alternate scenario to deal with Andersson/Kylington.

Lots there some of which I agree with some of which I don't.
I'm not convinced that they have the guys to go the distance either, but I'm not in favor of a tear down. I think they can parlay some of their higher value pieces for different higher value pieces that allow them to contend even more. Similar to the Canes deal from a year ago.

And I hate to think that BT wouldn't be around for the long-term. This organization needs to commit to stability. I've made this point before, but a hallmark of a poor long-term franchise (which if we are being honest the Flames are) is the constant cycling out of key positions.

But to the matter at hand, re. Hamonic, I agree. He is highly motivated to be here. He is a good player and adds elements this team is short on. And it seems like he will be reasonable in his contract demands.

Retain the asset at a good contract. I would say the only thing you want to manage is the expansion draft implication, so I would give him the full NTC but not full NMC.

[Flash Walken]

The thing is Jiri, the longer Tre remains here spending draft picks, the worse and more prolonged the bottoming out is going to be.

The St.Louis team that just won the cup has it's foundations in drafts 10 years ago. It won't be for another 5-8 years until the Flames really experience the asset deficit accumulated under Tre.

So maybe you can pull off another Hamilton + grade a prospect for two top end roster players, but I don't see that really pushing the rock up hill. A re-do of that Hamilton trade probably looks like dealing Giordano this offseason or Andersson/Valimaki next offseason.

The Flames are running out of legit trade chips that don't simultaneously signal the start of a tear down, unless those chips are more and more futures, which makes the situation worse and worse 5 years from now.

Don't necessarily want to have a state of the franchise discussion, but I think there are two windows with this roster. The first window is between now and expansion when you go try as hard as you can to maximize every dollar of the cap, and the second window is when you maximize every trade return for draft picks as you approach Gaudreau's last year under contract.

I"m comfortable with a long in the tooth hamonic playing out his tremendous value deal during a rebuild, instilling work ethic and passion in new faces added to the organization. That's why I'd be prepared for a longer term deal.

If you REALLY want to go for it in the next two years though, you're probably dealing Hamonic AND Brodie and looking for Hamonic type qualities in lower priced defenders.

[dustygoon]

What's a protected list kind of look like? Maybe we go the 8 skater route since protecting 4 D is better. But regardless...looks like we lose one of Gio, Hamonic or Kylington. Not sure you want to lose Gio even for that last year (bad look not protecting a guy like that). So Hamonic and a NMC suddenly does look like an issue to think through for sure.

JG
Mony
Tkachuk
Backlund
Lindholm
Bennett
(Dube won't need protection i don't think because <3 years)

Hanifin
Anderson
Vali
Gio? Hamonic? Kylington?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Not necessarily. They might just like Hamonic way better and think he's a better fit long term. Hamonic may have more trade value, but not enough more to justify trading him.

Brodie and Hamonic are completely different d-men. I doubt their trade value determines 100% who stays and who goes.

I agree, and to me, a lot depends on who they think is more easily replaced by Valimaki/Andersson/Kylington. Who can Gio or Hanifin work with better?

[Geeoff]

I like the idea of keeping Hamonic. Brodie is a better overall defenseman but Hamonic provides a style the Flames are short on.



Plus, I'm really high on Andersson and Valimaki and I think they can replace Brodie's offense.

[AC]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

What's a protected list kind of look like? Maybe we go the 8 skater route since protecting 4 D is better. But regardless...looks like we lose one of Gio, Hamonic or Kylington. Not sure you want to lose Gio even for that last year (bad look not protecting a guy like that). So Hamonic and a NMC suddenly does look like an issue to think through for sure.

JG
Mony
Tkachuk
Backlund
Lindholm
Bennett
(Dube won't need protection i don't think because <3 years)

Hanifin
Anderson
Vali
Gio? Hamonic? Kylington?

Dube will need to be protected. 3 pro years:
2018-19,
2019-20,
2020-21.

Draft will occur June 2021.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

It's not Giordano I'm concerned about. I'd rather overpay Hamonic a bit and get the option to keep the better of Hamonic/Andersson/Kylington.

Give Hamonic a NTC, that might be acceptable as Seattle isn't too far away.

Based on the way the Vegas expansion draft, I'd be more worried about getting Hamonic's number down than who Seattle takes in the draft.

As we all saw, it's pretty easy to protect who you want to protect even if you have to do it with a side deal. And even if you protect everyone you want, there's a good possibility of having made a mistake as the player they take (which you didn't feel the need to protect) goes on to be a star.

[Geeoff]

IMO letting the expansion draft affect the moves you make for 2 whole years is a mistake. Seattle can only take 1 player and everyone else is losing a player too. Too many teams got raked over the coals by McPhee last time by giving him multiple assets.

[delayedreflex]

Is it possible to give Hamonic a NTC up to and including the expansion draft year, then an NMC following that? I assume the key part of a NMC vs. a NTC is that you can't get demoted to the AHL, which he shouldn't be worried about in the first half of his contract, but might be concerned about for the latter half. Would that allow him to be exposed in the expansion draft but still give him the security that he might be looking for in an NMC?

[JurassicTunga12]

I'd be happy about this. Hamonic is a warrior, solid on the back end and is a great human.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Based on the way the Vegas expansion draft, I'd be more worried about getting Hamonic's number down than who Seattle takes in the draft.

As we all saw, it's pretty easy to protect who you want to protect even if you have to do it with a side deal. And even if you protect everyone you want, there's a good possibility of having made a mistake as the player they take (which you didn't feel the need to protect) goes on to be a star.

Didn't pretty much every side deal come back to haunt the non-Vegas team? That's my recollection.