Attendance woes at the dome?!

[Classic_Sniper]

3 things I see.

1. The local economy has been hit hard in this town. Our unemployment rate is still very high compared to the National average and even the Provincial average.

2. When I go to games, I find the nose bleeds tend to be the most commonly empty/unsold. So at the very least, the more expensive lower bowl seats are typically full. It just doesn’t help that a relatively large, out of date capacity arena has swaths of empty, undesirable seats (PL’s) that affects its “sell out” data.

3. Lastly, attendance looks like it’s down across the board. The NHL is a gate driven league and I find millennials are less interested in attending actual games and instead prefer more inexpensive options like streaming or skipping out on the league’s product entirely. I worked with quite a few millennials as a part time gig and in that age group, no one there gave a rats ass about hockey or the Flames. Also doesn’t help that this city is filled with migrants from other provinces/countries who didn’t grow up Flames fans and thus, aren’t interested in paying for games unless their team comes to town.

[Jordan!]

Does the Dome still have that wonderful Nacho cheese?

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Yoho

So would it be safe to say from a purely business and consumer perspective the Flames would be licking thier lips for relocation?

Absolutely not. From a business perspective, you'd have to make the case that Houston is more passionate about hockey than Calgary.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by rage2

Edmonton sells out every game.

Our market strength was disguised by O&G spending during the good times, and now we're seeing a clearer picture of how big our actual hockey market really is here.

they also had hope to sell with #1 draft picks. then the hope of a new arena, and then having the new arena.
people were scared of missing out.

if the oilers suck this year you'll quickly see attendance woes, especially at the new arena price points.

I don't think the loyalty of the average fan is any more or any less than Calgary fans.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

3 things I see.

1. The local economy has been hit hard in this town. Our unemployment rate is still very high compared to the National average and even the Provincial average.

2. When I go to games, I find the nose bleeds tend to be the most commonly empty/unsold. So at the very least, the more expensive lower bowl seats are typically full. It just doesn’t help that a relatively large, out of date capacity arena has swaths of empty, undesirable seats (PL’s) that affects its “sell out” data.

3. Lastly, attendance looks like it’s down across the board. The NHL is a gate driven league and I find millennials are less interested in attending actual games and instead prefer more inexpensive options like streaming or skipping out on the league’s product entirely. I worked with quite a few millennials as a part time gig and in that age group, no one there gave a rats ass about hockey or the Flames. Also doesn’t help that this city is filled with migrants from other provinces/countries who didn’t grow up Flames fans and thus, aren’t interested in paying for games unless their team comes to town.

You're also touching on the biggest problem here: you have to grow up watching it to actually enjoy what it is today. The business entirely relies on our parents instilling a love for the game - as the professional game itself isn't drawing anyone in.

[Hockey Fan #751]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Flames ownership and management, alongside the rest of Canadian markets, have taken fans for granted. When you look at what the American teams do for their season ticket holders and compare it to what's up here it's no shock that fans are starting to stay away. There was a lot of good will and banked enthusiasm across the city and country after the 04 cup run for hockey in Canada. I think the Flames and Oilers cup runs also help to light a fire under people in Winnipeg to want the Jets back. It was a great time for the NHL in Canada.

So ownership being the rich greedy ####s they are across Canada, do they enjoy this new interest by treating ST like gold? No, they jack up prices every year, charge insane money for concessions and parking, and do very few things for ST holders in terms of give aways and bonuses.

Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa are all having attendance issues and if the Jets weren't considered a contender I'm sure they'd have issues this year too. The ticket prices for last years West Final were so onerous we didn't even sell them out. Greed disgusts me and the Canadian owners were pigs at the trough last 15 years.

The NHL came out of the last two lockouts in really good shape. I do wonder if the climate has changed and the 2020 lockout becomes the last straw.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Split98

You're also touching on the biggest problem here: you have to grow up watching it to actually enjoy what it is today. The business entirely relies on our parents instilling a love for the game - as the professional game itself isn't drawing anyone in.

One of the problems I've found is that there are very few games in the year that are family friendly. You get 1, maybe 2, afternoon games on a weekend per season, the rest are all nights (and the ones on weekends are often at 8pm).

I know beer drinking adults bring in more revenue, but if you want kids to become Flames fans for life, you have to make it easier for them to attend games to build that bond.

Also, maybe consider a discount for people under 18. A lot of families can't afford to go as a unit, so they don't bother at all.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Table 5

One of the problems I've found is that there are very few games in the year that are family friendly. You get 1, maybe 2, afternoon games on a weekend per season, the rest are all nights (and the ones on weekends are often at 8pm).

I know beer drinking adults bring in more revenue, but if you want kids to become Flames fans for life, you have to make it easier for them to attend games to build that bond.

I hear what you're saying, but what if you blacked out the game to local audiences who didn't spend money on an extra sports TV package.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Does the Dome still have that wonderful Nacho cheese?

look who's back

[krazycanuck]

Originally Posted by rage2

Edmonton sells out every game.

Outside of the first year of McDavid and the first year at the new arena they haven’t been selling out for the last 10 years, more Oilers Kool-aid they serve up. Similar to the BS “sellout” streaks in Colorado, Vancouver and Minnesota over the years.

The Oilers were lucky enough to play in a small arena that made people think twice about giving up their seats so things didn’t go full Senators.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

3 things I see.

1. The local economy has been hit hard in this town. Our unemployment rate is still very high compared to the National average and even the Provincial average.

2. When I go to games, I find the nose bleeds tend to be the most commonly empty/unsold. So at the very least, the more expensive lower bowl seats are typically full. It just doesn’t help that a relatively large, out of date capacity arena has swaths of empty, undesirable seats (PL’s) that affects its “sell out” data.

3. Lastly, attendance looks like it’s down across the board. The NHL is a gate driven league and I find millennials are less interested in attending actual games and instead prefer more inexpensive options like streaming or skipping out on the league’s product entirely. I worked with quite a few millennials as a part time gig and in that age group, no one there gave a rats ass about hockey or the Flames. Also doesn’t help that this city is filled with migrants from other provinces/countries who didn’t grow up Flames fans and thus, aren’t interested in paying for games unless their team comes to town.

I don’t agree on your third point. Every large city is filled with migrants who didn’t grow up in them. You think Toronto isn’t filled with immigrants? New York? In fact Calgary is probably the most homogenous and white city in Canada. In regards to millennials, this is a generalization and again I don’t agree at all. It just depends on the circles you are in.

First two points are legit.

[EM11]

I was excited about the start of this season, but that is fading fast (as it always does.) But that's not what keeps me away.

It's too expensive. If your company is buying the seats, great. But the PL seats are awful, and I don't want to be up there with my family. The better seats are just out of reach - even for people making decent money. 250-300 bucks before food to bring my family to any event is just nuts. I'm always astounded they can fill the place even at 90% capacity.

Add to that, the on-ice product is sub par and the arena experience is also pretty poor.

I'm a huge Flames fan, grew up with them and all of that. It's still too expensive and not good enough.

[Badgers Nose]

1. As a STH for years, games pre Christmas are terrible attendance and audience engagement wise (seats sold, but vacant)
2. Calgary is an economic apocalyptic wasteland. People have other priorities.

90% of Flames fans are not like us. They can take them or leave them.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I hear what you're saying, but what if you blacked out the game to local audiences who didn't spend money on an extra sports TV package.

People with kids are not going to games because the timing sucks, not because of it being available on TV.

The TV thing I think is more appropriate for why adults (like me!) don't have much incentive to go.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

What I think is the most interesting about these conversations is how the narrative switches to the numbers pointing to problems for the Flames. Even if you buy the average attendance being at 94% for this year, why do people think the Flames would panic about this. Sure I get it, they want that extra 6% of people in, which means very real money and margin to them. But in all reality, 94% in this city right now, where the economy hasn't fully re-bounded, and the team has been very average (at best the past couple of seasons) is pretty good draw. Not too many NHL markets would draw 94% attendance, with premium priced tickets, a crappy building, tough economy and a mediocre team. So I'm not sure what the critique of the team or the fan base is with these stats.

Which then leads me to my next point. How people then immediately jump to the Flames need to reduce ticket prices or concession prices. That assumes the Flames (the business) goal is 100% attendance. The goal is make the most money. I'd strongly guess that the Flames would have the lower the prices substantially to hit 100% attendance very night. I'm also guessing they are better off continuing to charge what they charge, and get the building ~95% full. Then if the economy picks up even more, the team gets more competitive, or both, they benefit even more with 100% attendance at full pop.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

What I think is the most interesting about these conversations is how the narrative switches to the numbers pointing to problems for the Flames. Even if you buy the average attendance being at 94% for this year, why do people think the Flames would panic about this. Sure I get it, they want that extra 6% of people in, which means very real money and margin to them. But in all reality, 94% in this city right now, where the economy hasn't fully re-bounded, and the team has been very average (at best the past couple of seasons) is pretty good draw. Not too many NHL markets would draw 94% attendance, with premium priced tickets, a crappy building, tough economy and a mediocre team. So I'm not sure what the critique of the team or the fan base is with these stats.

Which then leads me to my next point. How people then immediately jump to the Flames need to reduce ticket prices or concession prices. That assumes the Flames (the business) goal is 100% attendance. The goal is make the most money. I'd strongly guess that the Flames would have the lower the prices substantially to hit 100% attendance very night. I'm also guessing they are better off continuing to charge what they charge, and get the building ~95% full. Then if the economy picks up even more, the team gets more competitive, or both, they benefit even more with 100% attendance at full pop.

The Flames used to charge fans to be on a waiting list. The Hot House.

At one point, it was rumoured to account for upwards of a million dollars in revenue:

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Before joining the Flames official season ticket wait list called 'Hot House' for $100 per seat per season I called the Flames ticketing number to ask about the length of the season ticket wait list. The sales woman didn't want to tell me how many but I managed to weasel it out of her: Close to 10,000, all paying $100 per year to be a member of the 'Hot House.' That means the Flames are adding $1 Million a year in revenue managing a waiting list while only providing 4 Hitmen tickets, 10% off at the Fan Attic and 1 nosebleed Flames ticket subject to availability. This also comes as ticket prices are going up 20-25% for next season. I thought before anyone else decided to shell out to be on the waiting list they should know their chances of getting tickets any time within the next couple of years is nil.

NOW, the team is reportedly offering up that they have a couple of thousand unsold tickets. Team's really don't like to have to admit that. Towards the end of the canucks sellout streak, they were doing lots of things that were essentially 'papering' the market to get tickets sold. I remember reading on here that there were thousands of tickets available for the home opener on Game Day.

The team has priced themselves out of the market. It probably happened 2 or 3 years years ago, and I don't think it is all because of the energy price downturn either. Consumers often find themselves well into a product or price cycle before changing their behaviour, but if you don't distract them with a slicker or more glitzy delivery, they'll wise up to it faster.

It is not just an on ice product problem, that's probably one of the lesser issues actually. It's the stagnant product away from the rink and the lack of community engagement from the organization that are the primaries here after direct ticket cost.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by rage2

Edmonton sells out every game.

Our market strength was disguised by O&G spending during the good times, and now we're seeing a clearer picture of how big our actual hockey market really is here.

No they don't. Oilers game have the exact same amount of pink and blue dots as Flames games.

It looks to me that the teams have seen some of the crazy re sale prices over the past few years and are trying to set the Face Value prices to match that. The issue is that season ticket holders have all clued in that it is super simple to list their tickets on TM. Now, for any given game there is a huge supply of available tickets and the market is flooded and the novelty of getting tickets has lost it's value. 10 years ago, the entire season would sell out in 1 hour.

I predict larger %'s of season ticket holder cancellations over the next 2 years and much worse attendance numbers.

[ST20]

Originally Posted by heep223

I don’t agree on your third point. Every large city is filled with migrants who didn’t grow up in them. You think Toronto isn’t filled with immigrants? New York? In fact Calgary is probably the most homogenous and white city in Canada. In regards to millennials, this is a generalization and again I don’t agree at all. It just depends on the circles you are in.

First two points are legit.

The cities you named are much larger than Calgary. Their base of fans are so strong that people end up converting (I grew up in Ontario as a Canucks fan and converted to the leafs as I grew older because of the coverage and generally most people like cheering with crowd). This is a long winded way of saying that converting new calgarians to flames fans is more important to the flames than these other cities - especially for a good atmosphere in the dome. For the life of me, I cannot understand how there is a strong presence of Ottawa fans at flames games. So many visiting team fans seems to be more vocal and noticeable than flames fans.

The millennial comment is a generalization yes but it doesn't mean it is not true. There's a reason why all teams (including the STH meetings with Flames execs) talk about "how to capture the millennial crowd" and the strategy being a big part in the new arena conversation. I can't say for sure but I would imagine these large corporations have done their research. Are E-sports going to take over traditional sports? Hell no, but it's undoubtedly rising and it's easy to see who the audiences are for them.

[shermanator]

As someone who's gone from a die-hard Flames fan to a casual fairweather Flames fan recently, for me there's not much reason to go to a Flames game. The team has been nothing but a disappointment for 27 of the 29 seasons since I've followed them (starting in 1990), ticket and concession prices are outrageous, and the atmosphere is atrocious.

I can't even be bothered to tune in on TV lately either, so why would I waste my money on the product put in front of me?

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by rage2

I don't feel prices here are expensive at all. We're right in the middle of the league when it comes to ticket prices, and I know from my travels and watching hockey elsewhere that I'm paying significant less in Calgary. Edmonton is something like 60% more expensive than us on average since the new arena. Here's this year's data from a reseller, which gives a look at going rates for current season tickets:

.

I have always felt like Flames tickets were some of the most expensive. I went to Game 2 of the 3rd round of the playoffs in Pittsburgh (vs Tampa Bay) and got 1st row seats in their 2nd level for $140 a pop. IIRC the Vancouver series was $400 a ticket in the bottom of the 2nd bowl.